[Opensim-dev] Currency

Wed Jul 8 14:44:29 UTC 2009

Very well put, Neb.  Some, it seems, argue simply for the sake of argument
and the perception that open-source equates "free labor."

I myself have had disagreements with certain other open-source solutions and
I choose to take advantage of my disagreeable nature and learned enough C#
to implement the changes I desired that no one else would.

In the end I gained a great tool and accomplished a customized application
to suit my particular needs at the time.

- Len

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Nebadon Izumi <nebadon2025 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rock,
>
> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to
> implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason,
> OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset
> server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people
> are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an
> economic system,  It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted
> the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect
> others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this
> functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we
> said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk
> assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the
> risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok
> to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.
> You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact
> that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be
> discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven
> to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is
> not!!!
>
> Neb
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers <
> Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>
>>  I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with
>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered
>> risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have
>> bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a
>> risk.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rock
>>
>> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Stefan Andersson
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
>>
>> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>
>>
>>
>> Rock,
>>
>>
>>
>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out
>> of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom
>> implementation/third party provider layer.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for
>> what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators
>> and custom implementation.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module,
>> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
>>
>>
>>
>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case
>> of weighting several variables against each other.
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a
>> monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution.
>>
>>
>>
>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was
>> using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production
>> environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a  “suit
>> yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but
>> also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature
>> code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want
>> to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a
>> real-world risk policy decision.
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core
>> would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no
>> external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value
>> enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific
>> for there to be any value for the general public.
>>
>>
>>
>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot
>> more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be
>> considered for inclusion into the core distribution.
>>
>>
>>
>> /Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Colin B. Withers
>> *Sent:* den 7 juli 2009 15:27
>> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>
>>
>>
>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and
>> does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core
>> solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D
>> chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim
>> grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world,
>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module
>> in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" is a
>> specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as
>> a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world
>> money (whether a  currency module is implemented in core or external) as if
>> the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental
>> income, or be liable for the claims of others.
>>
>>
>>
>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use
>> of a carefully worded TOS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim
>> "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or "the bugs in
>> your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week,
>> losing US$$$ in the process"?
>>
>>
>>
>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular
>> purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rock
>>
>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has
>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hart
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
>> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>
>>
>>
>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans
>> to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning
>> has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax
>> issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified
>> experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money
>> inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many
>> solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services
>> authorities.
>>
>>
>>
>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I
>> believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core
>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back
>> to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Colin B. Withers <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int>
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
>>
>> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>
>>
>>
>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency
>> removed?
>>
>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than
>> 3D chatrooms.
>>
>> Rock
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [
>> mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>]
>> On Behalf Of Melanie
>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>
>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
>> implementation.
>>
>> Melanie
>>
>> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY
>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
>> >> bikcmp2 at gmail.com
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >>
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>> >
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>
>
> --
> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
>
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