[Opensim-dev] Currency

Wed Jul 8 15:17:13 UTC 2009

Hi Neb,

No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments.

Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release.

Let me put it this way, quite clearly..

If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie:

a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and

b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)

are sourced from different suppliers.

Now, please explain to me the difference between:

i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module,

ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction?

It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module.

Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?

I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that).

Is there any real difference between:

1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance,
2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US$10's worth of inworld currency
3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?

To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.

I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time:

Currency module = big risk
Asset server = no risk

And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS.

Rock

From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

Rock,

I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system,  It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.  You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!!

Neb
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int<mailto:Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int>> wrote:

I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk.

Rock

From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] On Behalf Of Stefan Andersson
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM

To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

Rock,

An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer.

There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation.

It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created.

As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other.

In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution.

We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a  “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision.

I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public.

At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.

/Stefan

From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] On Behalf Of Colin B. Withers
Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes.

However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that.

I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether a  currency module is implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others.

This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use of a carefully worded TOS.

Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?

The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.

Rock

PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.

From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] On Behalf Of Chris Hart
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.

Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.

Chris

From: Colin B. Withers<mailto:Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int>

Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM

To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>

Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed?

Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D chatrooms.

Rock

-----Original Message-----
From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
implementation.

Melanie

Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com<mailto:bikcmp2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
>> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY
>> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
>> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
>> bikcmp2 at gmail.com<mailto:bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
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--
Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
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