Very well put, Neb. Some, it seems, argue simply for the sake of argument and the perception that open-source equates "free labor."<br><br>I myself have had disagreements with certain other open-source solutions and I choose to take advantage of my disagreeable nature and learned enough C# to implement the changes I desired that no one else would.<br>
<br>In the end I gained a great tool and accomplished a customized application to suit my particular needs at the time.<br><br>- Len<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Nebadon Izumi <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nebadon2025@gmail.com">nebadon2025@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Rock,<br><br>I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!!<br>
<br>Neb<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int" target="_blank">Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" name="Compose message area" lang="EN-GB">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree
with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered
risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought
with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Rock</span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stefan
Andersson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM<div><div></div><div><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency</div></div></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Rock,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">An implementation of a functional monetary system has been
declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the
custom implementation/third party provider layer.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the
line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module
creators and custom implementation.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a
module, tailored for the specific use case, be created.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often
it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that
implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core
distribution.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that
people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a
“suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal
case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and
immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t
want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a
real-world risk policy decision.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I believe that the very absence of a money implementation
outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside;
if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means
nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use
case specific for there to be any value for the general public.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs
a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could
be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">/Stefan</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Colin B.
Withers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 7 juli 2009 15:27<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have
it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions
or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well
suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by
a US college for educational purposes. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual
world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to
that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a
currency module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my
money" is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever
opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in
core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner
stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow
it) by use of a carefully worded TOS.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might
claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or
"the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants
this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Rock</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into,
has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Hart<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Couldn't
disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have
it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more
than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around
running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage
correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you
want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there
that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Money
should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's
on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to
have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with "your
code ate my money" complaints.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Chris</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int" title="mailto:Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int
CTRL + Click to follow link" target="_blank">Colin
B. Withers</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Monday, July 06,
2009 1:30 PM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" title="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
CTRL + Click to follow link" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Re: [Opensim-dev]
Currency</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Has this always been the case? Why was
SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed?<br>
<br>
Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D
chatrooms.<br>
<br>
Rock<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>]
On Behalf Of Melanie<br>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency<br>
<br>
OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency<br>
implementation.<br>
<br>
Melanie<br>
<br>
Melvin Carvalho wrote:<br>
> Will currencies be distributed accross grids?<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<<a href="mailto:bikcmp2@gmail.com" target="_blank">bikcmp2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my<br>
>> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY<br>
>> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.<br>
>> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS<br>
>> <a href="mailto:bikcmp2@gmail.com" target="_blank">bikcmp2@gmail.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPhone<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
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>> <a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">-- <br>Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ <a href="http://osgrid.org" target="_blank">http://osgrid.org</a><br>
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