[Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
James Stallings II
james.stallings at gmail.com
Sat Dec 6 13:49:57 UTC 2008
Brilliantly stated Adam :D
Cheers
James
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Justin Clark-Casey <jjustincc at googlemail.com
> wrote:
> Frisby, Adam wrote:
> > I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying – but I also think one
> > of the benefits of OpenSim's design is that if Rex can achieve
> > everything in a region module, that limits the requirements for core
> > discussion as far as direction goes (it acts effectively as its own
> > sub-project, communicating back changes that need to be done to improve
> > opensim as a whole).
>
> A definite +1 on this. Personally, I hope that core OpenSim will
> eventually become like Apache is now - a stable base
> which people build great things on top of without having to go back and
> make that code part of the webserver project.
>
> However, I would say that we're currently a considerable way from anything
> like this happening.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Now that's not to say I wouldn't welcome some greater participation on
> > this and other lists – the scale and ambition of the project is
> > worthwhile bringing to a community. I think this last year has
> > definitely been a bumpy one with regards to Rex 'cooperativity', but
> > they have expressed some serious interest lately in rejoining the
> > community, and I think it would be really foolish to pass that
> > opportunity up over old wounds.
> >
> >
> >
> > That all being said – I think ultimately code talks with this crowd,
> > let's wait and see – there's certainly no harm occurring right now, and
> > there's some potential for benefit. If there's specific issues, then
> > raise them – I don't think anyone in this crowd is childish and afraid
> > of criticism.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Adam
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> > [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *James
> > Stallings II
> > *Sent:* Friday, 5 December 2008 7:55 PM
> > *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
> >
> >
> >
> > Charles, All.
> >
> > One thing I have long admired in Charles Ckrinke is an abiding sense of
> > loyalty. But you cant make promises on behalf of us all, any more than I
> > or Melanie can speak on behalf of us all.
> >
> > I am very much interested in the Rexx work, but the fact is, where Mel
> > may be particularly wrong with respect to certain technical assumptions,
> > she is spot-on as regards the cross-platform issues and the closed-doors
> > work.
> >
> > We are an open community. We established this community, and they come
> > to us, not the other way 'round. If they wish work with the community,
> > it means open discussion of design and implementation, and incremental
> > patches. It also means a demonstrable commitment to cross-platform
> > developement. This is nothing more or less than we demand from every
> > other party who contributes code to opensim. What I dont understand is
> > why Rexx is any different in this respect.
> >
> > Until such time as they are ready to meet us in the middle, and engage
> > the requirements of the community as a whole on *its terms* (not just
> > those of Charles Crinke or Adam Frisby) I have to pretty well say thumbs
> > down. And this really isnt a choice I make willingly - it's the choice I
> > have to make by default.
> >
> > My apologies for any perceptions of negativity on my part - I simply
> > respect the rules we have established as a team, and I expect nothing
> > less from any other participant, whether they washed up on our shores
> > yesterday, or are founding members of the project.
> >
> > Just my .02$L, for what it's worth.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> > James
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Frisby, Adam <adam at deepthink.com.au
> > <mailto:adam at deepthink.com.au>> wrote:
> >
> > > Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> > > and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> > > breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> > > would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> > > to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> > > developed from scratch.
> >
> > This actually isn't true.
> >
> > The login service is wholly self-contained in the modular rex DLL,
> > there's no dependency on modifying OpenSim at all. (Yes, this required a
> > lot of hackery initially to work, but it does.), so there's no real
> > reason to push it back to OpenSim since there's no core changes.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Adam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> > <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-dev-
> > <mailto:opensim-dev->
> >
> > > bounces at lists.berlios.de <mailto:bounces at lists.berlios.de>] On Behalf
> > Of Melanie
> > > Sent: Friday, 5 December 2008 5:47 PM
> > > To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
> > >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am not opposed to Rex technology. I'm not opposed to have it in
> > > OpenSim.
> > > I'm also not opposed to the people who I know (like you).
> > >
> > > What I am opposed to is the strategy of doing Windows-only
> > > development behind closed doors, without community (OpenSim dev)
> > > feedback, then presenting huge patches that are so brittle that they
> > > need to be applied without scrutiny or go stale.
> > >
> > > I would welcome Rex involvement if the Rex developers would join us
> > > in -dev, discuss things, and submit small patches that we can
> > > analyze and become familiar with, and modify so they don't conflict
> > > with the directions where OpenSim core wants to go.
> > >
> > > Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> > > and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> > > breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> > > would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> > > to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> > > developed from scratch.
> > >
> > > Also, I see anumber of abuse scenarios possible with the
> > > login/avatar service (commercial abuse), which is why I personally
> > > favor a different model. Specifically, to keep the avatar appearance
> > > data on the client and not on any server at all.
> > >
> > > That is what I can write out right now, there is a diffuse feeling
> > > of opposition in me, that I have yet to fathom.
> > >
> > > If you take it in small steps, I will be with you. Megapatches would
> > > be an issue for me.
> > >
> > > Melanie
> > >
> > >
> > > Ryan McDougall wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com
> > <mailto:melanie at t-data.com>> wrote:
> > > >> In my opinion, nothing. Nothing, that is, that we could not get
> > > >> without ReX involvement, and better.
> > > >>
> > > >> I would like to see OpenSim do an OpenSim solution to the mesh and
> > > >> asset/inventory system. I don't feel comfortable with the ReX
> > > >> solution, and even less comfortable with the parts of it they may
> > > >> hold close to the chest and spring on us later. I expect some
> > > >> unpalatable bits there. I would rather see us grow to that level in
> > > >> a true collaborative Open Source, Free environment, without being
> > > >> under the control of a single corporation.
> > > >
> > > > Which corporation is that? Do you know anything about legal or
> > > funding
> > > > structure of reX? Do you know any of us personally?
> > > >
> > > > Its a lot to presume with little in the way of fact.
> > > >
> > > > How about instead of playing games you just ask me and I'll tell
> you.
> > > > If I had the faintest idea what your concern is I'd pre-emptively
> > > tell
> > > > you...
> > > >
> > > >> Melanie
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Diva Canto wrote:
> > > >>> As Rex's extensions move closer to opensim (I'm in the group of
> > > people
> > > >>> who can't wait to see meshes and better graphics!), it will be
> good
> > > to
> > > >>> know more of the details of Rex. I'm not sure I understand
> > > completely
> > > >>> the use of "avatar" here, as we know that opensim uses it to
> denote
> > > a
> > > >>> pixelated carcass, that's neither a user nor an agent. And in Rex
> > > the
> > > >>> "avatar system" seems like it's more of a user storage/asset
> > > system.
> > > >>> Part of the user's storage/assets includes the pixelated carcass
> > > for
> > > >>> opensim-based worlds that care about that; but it includes all
> > > other
> > > >>> assets owned by the user.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It would be interesting to compare existing efforts in opensim
> such
> > > as
> > > >>> the Hypergrid and the distributed asset server with Rex's avatar
> > > system.
> > > >>> Is it possible that
> > > >>> Hypergrid+DAS >= Rex's Avatar System ?
> > > >>> What else does the avatar system bring to the table?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Crista
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Ryan McDougall wrote:
> > > >>>> Thank you for your addition to the discussion James, however I
> > > think
> > > >>>> Paul may have misunderstood reX architecture when made a private
> > > >>>> discussion public without consent.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The reX avatar and authentication servers replace the User server
> > > and
> > > >>>> split it into Avatar storage for reX's own avatar system, and
> pure
> > > >>>> authentication of identity (the latter a bit like OpenID). The
> > > idea is
> > > >>>> to enable avatar portability: the ability to take the same
> > > >>>> meticulously created reX avatar from one grid to another.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Afaik there is no analogue for stock OpenSim, and thus its
> > > difficult
> > > >>>> to merge until the reX team is better integrated with OpenSim.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Moreover I see room for improvement there, and have some ideas to
> > > >>>> change it further. It would be better for all parties if we did
> > > our
> > > >>>> prototyping first, and then worry about arguing who has the
> better
> > > >>>> concept or code later and the discussion is on objective ground.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, James Stallings II
> > > >>>> <james.stallings at gmail.com <mailto:james.stallings at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> LOL an ESPECIALLY good idea given they are the originators of
> the
> > > project
> > > >>>>> and maintainers of the core offering :D
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>> James
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Jani Pirkola
> > > <jpirkola at gmail.com <mailto:jpirkola at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Paul,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Good idea to involve Opensim-dev, since they might have better
> > > ideas. I
> > > >>>>>> suppose Adam Frisby has already thought how or if to integrate
> > > avatar
> > > >>>>>> storage to Opensim.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> One reason for avatar appearance (or agent domain) handling
> > > being at the
> > > >>>>>> same place with the opensim is because in SL this was so. When
> > > we move
> > > >>>>>> towards free 3D Internet (free as libre), then we need to be
> > > able to take
> > > >>>>>> our avatar with us from grid to grid. This means that a grid
> > > must accept
> > > >>>>>> foreign agent domains - and eventually someone would like to
> run
> > > just the
> > > >>>>>> avatar service.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > > >>>>>> Jani
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <metaphorz at gmail.com
> > <mailto:metaphorz at gmail.com>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I am resending this since i think I sent a message from the
> > > wrong
> > > >>>>>>> email account...
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> ..........
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Jani
> > > >>>>>>> I confess to not knowing the details of the rex viewer
> source,
> > > so please
> > > >>>>>>> take
> > > >>>>>>> my comments in that light. However, to me, it would seem more
> > > logical to
> > > >>>>>>> evolve the already existing UGAIM+R services of OpenSim rather
> > > than
> > > >>>>>>> inventing a separate way of handling region and user services.
> > > I feel
> > > >>>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>> we may need more discussion with the opensim developers (which
> > > is
> > > >>>>>>> why I am cc'ing them). If I am missing something in the logic
> > > of your
> > > >>>>>>> revised
> > > >>>>>>> Rex viewer implementation strategy, please let me know, and
> > > thank your
> > > >>>>>>> team again for its excellent viewer capabilities.
> > > >>>>>>> In summary, if there is something about the way that opensim
> > > handles
> > > >>>>>>> avatars or authentication, then suggest fixes to this via
> > > opensim-dev.
> > > >>>>>>> Yes?
> > > >>>>>>> If the DB schema(s) need to change, then suggest changes or
> add
> > > new
> > > >>>>>>> tables.
> > > >>>>>>> -paul
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Jani Pirkola wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Exactly, that is what we will do. However some of the
> services
> > > need to
> > > >>>>>>>> be able to run separately from the region or opensim server.
> > > The best
> > > >>>>>>>> example of this is the avatar storage and user
> authentication,
> > > which we feel
> > > >>>>>>>> needs to be its own entity.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Jani
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> >>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Presumably, the "services" aspect can be worked out as a
> > > region
> > > >>>>>>>> module
> > > >>>>>>>> for opensim? Either that, or the rex team would work with
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>>> opensim
> > > >>>>>>>> team on the opensim trunk to extend its service
> > > capabilities to be
> > > >>>>>>>> more
> > > >>>>>>>> consistent with rexviewer. That way, developers or users
> > > are free
> > > >>>>>>>> to update or
> > > >>>>>>>> re-build opensim whenever it suits them, and rexviewer
> > > would still
> > > >>>>>>>> function.
> > > >>>>>>>> -p
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Antti Ilomäki wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Actually that's not exactly the case, viewer
> > > modifications are
> > > >>>>>>>> important to us, but the avatar portability service
> > > (and
> > > >>>>>>>> participating
> > > >>>>>>>> in world server development as well) is another
> > > central feature
> > > >>>>>>>> we
> > > >>>>>>>> have. Our system currently allows full avatar
> > > portability
> > > >>>>>>>> between
> > > >>>>>>>> different worlds and even the inventory works, at
> > > least to an
> > > >>>>>>>> extent.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>>:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I could be wrong, but i thought the point was to
> > > make Rex
> > > >>>>>>>> purely
> > > >>>>>>>> a visual client (viewer) and to let OpenSim
> handle
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>>> services?
> > > >>>>>>>> -paul
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> -- Dr. Paul A. Fishwick E-Mail:
> > > fishwick at cise.ufl.edu <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Dept. of Computer & Info Phone & FAX: (352)
> 392-1414
> > > >>>>>>>> Science and Engineering WWW:
> > > >>>>>>>> http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick<http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > > >>>>>>>> <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > > >>>>>>>> University of Florida (PGP Key available at
> above
> > > WWW
> > > >>>>>>>> address)
> > > >>>>>>>> P. O. Box 116120
> > > >>>>>>>> 332 Bldg. CSE, Gainesville, FL 32611-6120
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
> > > >>>>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > <mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> > > >>>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
> > > >>>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> > > >>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> ===================================
> > > >>>>> The wind
> > > >>>>> scours the earth for prayers
> > > >>>>> The night obscures them
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> http://osgrid.org
> > > >>>>> http://del.icio.us/SPQR
> > > >>>>> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> > > >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
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> > > >>>
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> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ===================================
> > The wind
> > scours the earth for prayers
> > The night obscures them
> >
> > http://osgrid.org
> > http://del.icio.us/SPQR
> > http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> > http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> justincc
> Justin Clark-Casey
> http://justincc.wordpress.com
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
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--
===================================
The wind
scours the earth for prayers
The night obscures them
http://osgrid.org
http://del.icio.us/SPQR
http://twitter.com/jstallings2
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
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