[Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
Justin Clark-Casey
jjustincc at googlemail.com
Sat Dec 6 12:11:18 UTC 2008
Frisby, Adam wrote:
> I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying – but I also think one
> of the benefits of OpenSim’s design is that if Rex can achieve
> everything in a region module, that limits the requirements for core
> discussion as far as direction goes (it acts effectively as its own
> sub-project, communicating back changes that need to be done to improve
> opensim as a whole).
A definite +1 on this. Personally, I hope that core OpenSim will eventually become like Apache is now - a stable base
which people build great things on top of without having to go back and make that code part of the webserver project.
However, I would say that we're currently a considerable way from anything like this happening.
>
>
>
> Now that’s not to say I wouldn’t welcome some greater participation on
> this and other lists – the scale and ambition of the project is
> worthwhile bringing to a community. I think this last year has
> definitely been a bumpy one with regards to Rex ‘cooperativity’, but
> they have expressed some serious interest lately in rejoining the
> community, and I think it would be really foolish to pass that
> opportunity up over old wounds.
>
>
>
> That all being said – I think ultimately code talks with this crowd,
> let’s wait and see – there’s certainly no harm occurring right now, and
> there’s some potential for benefit. If there’s specific issues, then
> raise them – I don’t think anyone in this crowd is childish and afraid
> of criticism.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *James
> Stallings II
> *Sent:* Friday, 5 December 2008 7:55 PM
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
>
>
>
> Charles, All.
>
> One thing I have long admired in Charles Ckrinke is an abiding sense of
> loyalty. But you cant make promises on behalf of us all, any more than I
> or Melanie can speak on behalf of us all.
>
> I am very much interested in the Rexx work, but the fact is, where Mel
> may be particularly wrong with respect to certain technical assumptions,
> she is spot-on as regards the cross-platform issues and the closed-doors
> work.
>
> We are an open community. We established this community, and they come
> to us, not the other way 'round. If they wish work with the community,
> it means open discussion of design and implementation, and incremental
> patches. It also means a demonstrable commitment to cross-platform
> developement. This is nothing more or less than we demand from every
> other party who contributes code to opensim. What I dont understand is
> why Rexx is any different in this respect.
>
> Until such time as they are ready to meet us in the middle, and engage
> the requirements of the community as a whole on *its terms* (not just
> those of Charles Crinke or Adam Frisby) I have to pretty well say thumbs
> down. And this really isnt a choice I make willingly - it's the choice I
> have to make by default.
>
> My apologies for any perceptions of negativity on my part - I simply
> respect the rules we have established as a team, and I expect nothing
> less from any other participant, whether they washed up on our shores
> yesterday, or are founding members of the project.
>
> Just my .02$L, for what it's worth.
>
>
> Cheers
> James
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Frisby, Adam <adam at deepthink.com.au
> <mailto:adam at deepthink.com.au>> wrote:
>
> > Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> > and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> > breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> > would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> > to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> > developed from scratch.
>
> This actually isn't true.
>
> The login service is wholly self-contained in the modular rex DLL,
> there's no dependency on modifying OpenSim at all. (Yes, this required a
> lot of hackery initially to work, but it does.), so there's no real
> reason to push it back to OpenSim since there's no core changes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-dev-
> <mailto:opensim-dev->
>
> > bounces at lists.berlios.de <mailto:bounces at lists.berlios.de>] On Behalf
> Of Melanie
> > Sent: Friday, 5 December 2008 5:47 PM
> > To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
> >
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am not opposed to Rex technology. I'm not opposed to have it in
> > OpenSim.
> > I'm also not opposed to the people who I know (like you).
> >
> > What I am opposed to is the strategy of doing Windows-only
> > development behind closed doors, without community (OpenSim dev)
> > feedback, then presenting huge patches that are so brittle that they
> > need to be applied without scrutiny or go stale.
> >
> > I would welcome Rex involvement if the Rex developers would join us
> > in -dev, discuss things, and submit small patches that we can
> > analyze and become familiar with, and modify so they don't conflict
> > with the directions where OpenSim core wants to go.
> >
> > Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> > and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> > breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> > would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> > to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> > developed from scratch.
> >
> > Also, I see anumber of abuse scenarios possible with the
> > login/avatar service (commercial abuse), which is why I personally
> > favor a different model. Specifically, to keep the avatar appearance
> > data on the client and not on any server at all.
> >
> > That is what I can write out right now, there is a diffuse feeling
> > of opposition in me, that I have yet to fathom.
> >
> > If you take it in small steps, I will be with you. Megapatches would
> > be an issue for me.
> >
> > Melanie
> >
> >
> > Ryan McDougall wrote:
> > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com
> <mailto:melanie at t-data.com>> wrote:
> > >> In my opinion, nothing. Nothing, that is, that we could not get
> > >> without ReX involvement, and better.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to see OpenSim do an OpenSim solution to the mesh and
> > >> asset/inventory system. I don't feel comfortable with the ReX
> > >> solution, and even less comfortable with the parts of it they may
> > >> hold close to the chest and spring on us later. I expect some
> > >> unpalatable bits there. I would rather see us grow to that level in
> > >> a true collaborative Open Source, Free environment, without being
> > >> under the control of a single corporation.
> > >
> > > Which corporation is that? Do you know anything about legal or
> > funding
> > > structure of reX? Do you know any of us personally?
> > >
> > > Its a lot to presume with little in the way of fact.
> > >
> > > How about instead of playing games you just ask me and I'll tell you.
> > > If I had the faintest idea what your concern is I'd pre-emptively
> > tell
> > > you...
> > >
> > >> Melanie
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Diva Canto wrote:
> > >>> As Rex's extensions move closer to opensim (I'm in the group of
> > people
> > >>> who can't wait to see meshes and better graphics!), it will be good
> > to
> > >>> know more of the details of Rex. I'm not sure I understand
> > completely
> > >>> the use of "avatar" here, as we know that opensim uses it to denote
> > a
> > >>> pixelated carcass, that's neither a user nor an agent. And in Rex
> > the
> > >>> "avatar system" seems like it's more of a user storage/asset
> > system.
> > >>> Part of the user's storage/assets includes the pixelated carcass
> > for
> > >>> opensim-based worlds that care about that; but it includes all
> > other
> > >>> assets owned by the user.
> > >>>
> > >>> It would be interesting to compare existing efforts in opensim such
> > as
> > >>> the Hypergrid and the distributed asset server with Rex's avatar
> > system.
> > >>> Is it possible that
> > >>> Hypergrid+DAS >= Rex's Avatar System ?
> > >>> What else does the avatar system bring to the table?
> > >>>
> > >>> Crista
> > >>>
> > >>> Ryan McDougall wrote:
> > >>>> Thank you for your addition to the discussion James, however I
> > think
> > >>>> Paul may have misunderstood reX architecture when made a private
> > >>>> discussion public without consent.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The reX avatar and authentication servers replace the User server
> > and
> > >>>> split it into Avatar storage for reX's own avatar system, and pure
> > >>>> authentication of identity (the latter a bit like OpenID). The
> > idea is
> > >>>> to enable avatar portability: the ability to take the same
> > >>>> meticulously created reX avatar from one grid to another.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Afaik there is no analogue for stock OpenSim, and thus its
> > difficult
> > >>>> to merge until the reX team is better integrated with OpenSim.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Moreover I see room for improvement there, and have some ideas to
> > >>>> change it further. It would be better for all parties if we did
> > our
> > >>>> prototyping first, and then worry about arguing who has the better
> > >>>> concept or code later and the discussion is on objective ground.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, James Stallings II
> > >>>> <james.stallings at gmail.com <mailto:james.stallings at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> LOL an ESPECIALLY good idea given they are the originators of the
> > project
> > >>>>> and maintainers of the core offering :D
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Cheers
> > >>>>> James
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Jani Pirkola
> > <jpirkola at gmail.com <mailto:jpirkola at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Paul,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Good idea to involve Opensim-dev, since they might have better
> > ideas. I
> > >>>>>> suppose Adam Frisby has already thought how or if to integrate
> > avatar
> > >>>>>> storage to Opensim.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> One reason for avatar appearance (or agent domain) handling
> > being at the
> > >>>>>> same place with the opensim is because in SL this was so. When
> > we move
> > >>>>>> towards free 3D Internet (free as libre), then we need to be
> > able to take
> > >>>>>> our avatar with us from grid to grid. This means that a grid
> > must accept
> > >>>>>> foreign agent domains - and eventually someone would like to run
> > just the
> > >>>>>> avatar service.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>> Jani
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <metaphorz at gmail.com
> <mailto:metaphorz at gmail.com>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am resending this since i think I sent a message from the
> > wrong
> > >>>>>>> email account...
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ..........
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Jani
> > >>>>>>> I confess to not knowing the details of the rex viewer source,
> > so please
> > >>>>>>> take
> > >>>>>>> my comments in that light. However, to me, it would seem more
> > logical to
> > >>>>>>> evolve the already existing UGAIM+R services of OpenSim rather
> > than
> > >>>>>>> inventing a separate way of handling region and user services.
> > I feel
> > >>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>> we may need more discussion with the opensim developers (which
> > is
> > >>>>>>> why I am cc'ing them). If I am missing something in the logic
> > of your
> > >>>>>>> revised
> > >>>>>>> Rex viewer implementation strategy, please let me know, and
> > thank your
> > >>>>>>> team again for its excellent viewer capabilities.
> > >>>>>>> In summary, if there is something about the way that opensim
> > handles
> > >>>>>>> avatars or authentication, then suggest fixes to this via
> > opensim-dev.
> > >>>>>>> Yes?
> > >>>>>>> If the DB schema(s) need to change, then suggest changes or add
> > new
> > >>>>>>> tables.
> > >>>>>>> -paul
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Jani Pirkola wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Exactly, that is what we will do. However some of the services
> > need to
> > >>>>>>>> be able to run separately from the region or opensim server.
> > The best
> > >>>>>>>> example of this is the avatar storage and user authentication,
> > which we feel
> > >>>>>>>> needs to be its own entity.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Jani
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Presumably, the "services" aspect can be worked out as a
> > region
> > >>>>>>>> module
> > >>>>>>>> for opensim? Either that, or the rex team would work with
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> opensim
> > >>>>>>>> team on the opensim trunk to extend its service
> > capabilities to be
> > >>>>>>>> more
> > >>>>>>>> consistent with rexviewer. That way, developers or users
> > are free
> > >>>>>>>> to update or
> > >>>>>>>> re-build opensim whenever it suits them, and rexviewer
> > would still
> > >>>>>>>> function.
> > >>>>>>>> -p
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Antti Ilomäki wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Actually that's not exactly the case, viewer
> > modifications are
> > >>>>>>>> important to us, but the avatar portability service
> > (and
> > >>>>>>>> participating
> > >>>>>>>> in world server development as well) is another
> > central feature
> > >>>>>>>> we
> > >>>>>>>> have. Our system currently allows full avatar
> > portability
> > >>>>>>>> between
> > >>>>>>>> different worlds and even the inventory works, at
> > least to an
> > >>>>>>>> extent.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>>:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I could be wrong, but i thought the point was to
> > make Rex
> > >>>>>>>> purely
> > >>>>>>>> a visual client (viewer) and to let OpenSim handle
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> services?
> > >>>>>>>> -paul
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> -- Dr. Paul A. Fishwick E-Mail:
> > fishwick at cise.ufl.edu <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>
> > >>>>>>>> Dept. of Computer & Info Phone & FAX: (352) 392-1414
> > >>>>>>>> Science and Engineering WWW:
> > >>>>>>>> http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
> <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > >>>>>>>> <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > >>>>>>>> University of Florida (PGP Key available at above
> > WWW
> > >>>>>>>> address)
> > >>>>>>>> P. O. Box 116120
> > >>>>>>>> 332 Bldg. CSE, Gainesville, FL 32611-6120
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> > >>>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> > >>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> ===================================
> > >>>>> The wind
> > >>>>> scours the earth for prayers
> > >>>>> The night obscures them
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://osgrid.org
> > >>>>> http://del.icio.us/SPQR
> > >>>>> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> > >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > >>>
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> > >>
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>
> --
> ===================================
> The wind
> scours the earth for prayers
> The night obscures them
>
> http://osgrid.org
> http://del.icio.us/SPQR
> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
>
>
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justincc
Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.wordpress.com
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