[Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

Fri Apr 11 19:21:05 UTC 2008

Charles,

I understood from Darren and Stefan that OpenSim's target is to be the
server for all kinds of applications. For this goal to happen there would be
own plug-in component for the SL Viewer, own for realXtend, etc. I naturally
agree that the current LL Viewer is the mainstream now and the compatibility
with that can not be broken.

If we follow the plug-in approach for different viewers, then it is no
longer an issue whether realXtend client is compatible with LL Viewer,
right? When using realXtend server, you have a setting whether you run it as
a standard OpenSim or in realXtend mode. I think this is well aligned with
the goals of OpenSim.

Best regards,
Jani

2008/4/11, Charles Krinke <cfk at pacbell.net>:
>
> I think we have to consider here that the secondlife LL viewer is the
> mainstream client. Currently this is 1.19.1.4 and keeping compatibility
> with the current LL Viewer is very important.
>
> I hope to begin testing the OpenViewer soon on OpenSim sims. There are a
> few folks that have mentioned the RexClient. But, the SecondLife official
> client is the mainstream. All other clients, including OpenViewer and
> RexClient are secondary in interest at this point.
>
> So, I would urge you to consider making compatibility of the RexClient to
> the LL Viewer to be a priority and urge you to keep compatibility with
> OpenSim as you move forward.
>
> Charles
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jani Pirkola <jpirkola at gmail.com>
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:32:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar
>
> Hi,
>
> The LL viewer is supposed to login only once and stay connected to that
> place for the whole session. If someone is willing to do "a voodoo server
> side component" that can act as a proxy between the client and different
> servers, then it might work. It just seems an awfully lot of trouble to
> just be able to use current LL Viewer.
>
> Maybe OpenViewer guys could also be interested to support the avatar
> architecture?
>
> Jani
>
>
>
> 2008/4/11, Cristina Videira Lopes <lopes at ics.uci.edu>:
> >
> >  Can't wait to see that integrated with OpenSim!
> >
> > I like your viewer a lot,  but do you think there is a way of
> > restructuring this so that it can be used with the regular LL viewer? Why
> > does this need your viewer at all? Is it because the login process requires
> > additional cooperation from the client? I mean, I understand that the more
> > fancy avatar appearance that you have requires changes in the viewer, but I
> > don't see why the inter-grid TPs require a different viewer. Isn't there a
> > way of separating the inter-grid TPs from the avatar appearance? Could you
> > explain that?
> >
> >
> >
> > Crista / Diva
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
> > opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Jani Pirkola
> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:29 PM
> > *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >  1)      Will VeriSign or Yahoo – or whomever – be able to set up these
> > kinds of account services?
> >
> >
> > Yes that is right.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2)      Does it work more or less the way I described my usage scenario?
> > That is, will I be able to go from OSGrid to the public IBM grid under
> > crista at verisignvw.com, assuming both grids accept verisignvw accounts?
> >
> >
> > yes just like that. You get also possibility to change your account in
> > the teleporting process in case you know that another grid is not accepting
> > your example crista at verisignvw.com account (actually this happens if you
> > teleport to Second Life).
> >
> >
> >
> > 3)      Does this require the use of the realXtend viewer or can this be
> > used with the standard LL viewer?
> >
> >  Currently only realXtend viewer can be used, but I wish that in the
> > future there will be more support for this architecture. We maintain the
> > realXtend viewer so that it can be used to access also SL servers or
> > standard OpenSim. The avatar appearance from avatar storage can only be seen
> > by others on realXtend servers. The architecture needs support from both
> > server and client.
> >
> >
> > Jani
> >
> > Crista / Diva
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
> > opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Jani Pirkola
> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:20 PM
> > *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Some comments how realXend has implemented things:
> >
> > 2008/4/10, Michael Wright <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk>:
> >
> > I haven't been able to find too much on how the RealXtend avatar system
> > is really going to work. And while in some ways I think its a step in the
> > right direction,  it also seems to limit a lot of things. I'm not so sure
> > you should alway have the same avatar for everything. Or should completely
> > cut the "region servers" out of the whole process. If I teleport to a region
> > that has a role playing game, maybe my avatar should automatically change
> > (at least clothes, but maybe body as well) to fit into that game. So the
> > region has to be able to have some say over the avatar.
> >
> >
> > The current realXtend login process gives a control point for region
> > servers as well. When a user logs in to a region, the viewer sends URL to
> > user's avatar storage. The region then sends that URL t other viewers so
> > that other user's can see each other's avatars. It is possible that in e.g.
> > a strict role playing world, the region uses it's own avatar storage which
> > stores a special avatar for just that user. Then the region server sends URL
> > to that avatar storage instead of the one that viewer sent to the region. If
> > we want to get really smart here, it would be also possible to combine
> > something from the user's regular avatar to the role playing game avatar to
> > achieve nice results... e.g. using face form from user's regular avatar but
> > otherwise using region specific body and clothes.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have the same sort of thoughts about inventory. While it should not be
> > centralised, the regions do need to be able to (with permission) do certain
> > things, like maybe a region gives you a extra set of folders for use in that
> > region, but they disappear when you leave it. I am also not sure there
> > should be just one inventory set for each user. Why not a number of sub sets
> > that can be combined etc. Maybe the region could restrict access to only a
> > certain set, which might be a set that it provides, when in that region; no
> > space ships when in that serious business region.. Inventory really needs to
> > swap to a more url based system.
> >
> >
> > We are just thinking how to build all this in realXtend. Currently we
> > have thought that each user will have a region specific inventory and a
> > personal inventory. The personal inventory is stored at avatar storage so it
> > will travel with the avatar.
> >
> > Also we need to remember not everything will be interconnected. There
> > will be some applications (or possible grids) that want to be separate from
> > everything else.
> >
> > So I don't think we should be forcing any centralised system on people.
> > And yes from what I've read, I actually think the realxtend avatar system
> > sounds too centralised, but that could be because I don't know enough
> > details of what is planned. I'm not saying its wrong, it just doesn't fit
> > all possible uses. So we need things to at least be modular.
> >
> >
> > Currently realXtend components have been designed so that there are no
> > centralized control points, it would be really a bad planning to build such
> > an architecture on that kind of centralized assumptions. In realXtend
> > architecture, everyone can set up their own avatar storages and user
> > authentication services and decide to trust or not to other user's
> > authentication services.
> > If a virtual world hosting company wants to make a completely walled
> > garden solution with realXtend, that is also possible. They can set up their
> > own avatar authentication and storage and trust no-one else's authentication
> > server (there is a basic allow/deny setting for this).
> >
> >
> >
> > Having said all that, of course I think a lot of people and applications
> > will want to have shared resources like these. Just we have to be careful in
> > how they are implemented. And for opensim at least, that should be a open
> > process/design that everyone can be part of.
> >
> >
> > A team of people almost always reaches better solutions over individual.
> > All the different use cases should be covered in a great care. I hope that
> > realXtend initiative with the distributed avatar architecture is being
> > refined with the OpenSim community involvement. I am sure that there are
> > still many things that need addressing. The realXtend code is available at
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/ and as I mentioned in
> > my earlier mail, we will have a new version, which is based on current
> > OpenSim, soon available.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jani Pirkola
> > realXtend program manager
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *Sean Dague <sean at dague.net>* wrote:
> >
> >  On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 08:50:33AM -0700, Diva Canto wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > What happened to realXtend's "avatar system"? Is it being integrated
> > > with OpenSim?
> >
> > Short answers. I don't know, and no. The process for code coming into
> > OpenSim is to put a patch in mantis. I haven't seen any proposed
> > patches in this area in mantis.
> >
> > > From where I stand, that, or something like that, is a major
> > > architectural requirement for virtual worlds to get serious. Without
> > the
> > > ability for people to get an identity+inventory that they can port
> > > around through different organization's grids, this is not going to be
> >
> > > that useful. I see a lot of interest from organizations to set up
> > their
> > > own virtual worlds under their control (so, their own grid'ed
> > regions),
> > > but if people have to get accounts with them to visit, this is just
> > not
> > > going to work for serious usages - period.
> >
> > Hence you've created the paradox. :)
> >
> > * We want everything connected
> > * We don't want to trust a single authoritative source for info
> > (otherwise you'd be on Second Life)
> >
> > Honestly, this is a hard problem to solve, and one that seems a bit
> > beyond the current scope. That being said, implementations and research
> > in this area which work with OpenSim are always welcomed.
> >
> > > I understand there's a ton of stability work to be done, but this
> > > particular architectural decision is really important, even
> > > (especially?) at this early stage; we all trust stability will happen
> > > over time.
> > > Is there anything that I can do to boost the efforts in that
> > direction,
> > > besides sending this email?
> >
> > Sample peer based User services that allow cross talk would be useful.
> > The moral equivalent of OpenID for virtual worlds (because you need more
> > than just what openid provides).
> >
> > -Sean
> >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Sean Dague Mid-Hudson Valley
> > sean at dague dot net Linux Users Group
> > http://dague.net http://mhvlug.org
> >
> > There is no silver bullet. Plus, werewolves make better neighbors
> > than zombies, and they tend to keep the vampire population down.
> > __________________________________________________________________
> >
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