[Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

Mon Apr 14 08:25:44 UTC 2008

I sent a reply to this on friday, but don't think it got through due to the mailing list having problems. So resending it here:

Yes, While the focus of opensim core is and will continue to be the LL Viewer,  that doesn't stop it supporting other clients that are not LL viewer compatible.  That is in fact one of the aims of opensim, and has been for a long time. 

I think we most likely need some a few more architectural changes in opensim before we can achieve this in a nice easy clean manor. But with the ClientViews and Region Modules, we should have the foundation for doing this. 

Actually having another client that could be used with opensim by just setting some different modules as the ones opensim will use for client communications. Would be a good test of whether our goal of supporting different clients works or not.

In the end I think the various clients will be mostly compatible, like web browsers are meant to be compatible now. But most likely in the short term, thats not really realistic, as different clients will want to add new features and sometimes that means breaking that compatibility.

With OpenViewer while its initial aim is to be LL compatible, I certainly want it to support plugins so new features could be added. And I expect when those plugins are running, it might not be LL compatible. So when using it with OpenSimulator, there would be modules loaded into the region server to support those extra features.

I think as a number of people have often repeated here, there is never really going to be one installation/version of opensim that meets all needs. The aim is to offer a common core that people can take and adapt to their needs. Hopefully one day there will be hundreds of different modules that various people have wrote.

Jani Pirkola <jpirkola at gmail.com> wrote: Charles,

I understood from Darren and Stefan that OpenSim's target is to be the server for all kinds of applications. For this goal to happen there would be own plug-in component for the SL Viewer, own for realXtend, etc. I naturally agree that the current LL Viewer is the mainstream now and the compatibility with that can not be broken. 

If we follow the plug-in approach for different viewers, then it is no longer an issue whether realXtend client is compatible with LL Viewer, right? When using realXtend server, you have a setting whether you run it as a standard OpenSim or in realXtend mode. I think this is well aligned with the goals of OpenSim. 

Best regards,
Jani

2008/4/11, Charles Krinke <cfk at pacbell.net>: I think we have to consider here that the secondlife LL viewer is the mainstream client. Currently this is 1.19.1.4 and keeping compatibility with the current LL Viewer is very important. 

I hope to begin testing the OpenViewer soon on OpenSim sims. There are a few folks that have mentioned the RexClient. But, the SecondLife official client is the mainstream. All other clients, including OpenViewer and RexClient are secondary in interest at this point.

So, I would urge you to consider making compatibility of the RexClient to the LL Viewer to be a priority and urge you to keep compatibility with OpenSim as you move forward.

Charles

 ----- Original Message ----
From: Jani Pirkola <jpirkola at gmail.com>
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
 Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:32:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

 Hi,

The LL viewer is supposed to login only once and stay connected to that place for the whole session. If someone is willing to do "a voodoo server side component" that can act as a proxy between the client and different servers, then it might work. It just seems an awfully lot of trouble to just be able to use current LL Viewer. 

Maybe OpenViewer guys could also be interested to support the avatar architecture?

Jani

2008/4/11, Cristina Videira Lopes <lopes at ics.uci.edu>:                Can't wait to see that integrated with OpenSim!
  I like your viewer a lot,  but do you think there is a way of restructuring this so that it can be used with the regular LL viewer? Why does this need your viewer at all? Is it because the login process requires additional cooperation from the client? I mean, I understand that the more fancy avatar appearance that you have requires changes in the viewer, but I don't see why the inter-grid TPs require a different viewer. Isn't there a way of separating the inter-grid TPs from the avatar appearance? Could you explain that?

  Crista / Diva

    From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Jani Pirkola
 Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:29 PM
 To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
 Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

  Hi,
           1)      Will VeriSign or Yahoo – or whomever – be able to set up these kinds of account services?

 Yes that is right. 

      2)      Does it work more or less the way I described my usage scenario? That is, will I be able to go from OSGrid to the public IBM grid under crista at verisignvw.com, assuming both grids accept verisignvw accounts?

 yes just like that. You get also possibility to change your account in the teleporting process in case you know that another grid is not accepting your example crista at verisignvw.com account (actually this happens if you teleport to Second Life). 

      3)      Does this require the use of the realXtend viewer or can this be used with the standard LL viewer?

      Currently only realXtend viewer can be used, but I wish that in the future there will be more support for this architecture. We maintain the realXtend viewer so that it can be used to access also SL servers or standard OpenSim. The avatar appearance from avatar storage can only be seen by others on realXtend servers. The architecture needs support from both server and client. 

 Jani
      Crista / Diva

    From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Jani Pirkola
 Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:20 PM
 To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
 Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

    Hi,

 Some comments how realXend has implemented things:
    2008/4/10, Michael Wright <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk>:
  I haven't been able to find too much on how the RealXtend avatar system is really going to work. And while in some ways I think its a step in the right direction,  it also seems to limit a lot of things. I'm not so sure you should alway have the same avatar for everything. Or should completely cut the "region servers" out of the whole process. If I teleport to a region that has a role playing game, maybe my avatar should automatically change (at least clothes, but maybe body as well) to fit into that game. So the region has to be able to have some say over the avatar. 

 The current realXtend login process gives a control point for region servers as well. When a user logs in to a region, the viewer sends URL to user's avatar storage. The region then sends that URL t other viewers so that other user's can see each other's avatars. It is possible that in e.g. a strict role playing world, the region uses it's own avatar storage which stores a special avatar for just that user. Then the region server sends URL to that avatar storage instead of the one that viewer sent to the region. If we want to get really smart here, it would be also possible to combine something from the user's regular avatar to the role playing game avatar to achieve nice results... e.g. using face form from user's regular avatar but otherwise using region specific body and clothes. 

  I have the same sort of thoughts about inventory. While it should not be centralised, the regions do need to be able to (with permission) do certain things, like maybe a region gives you a extra set of folders for use in that region, but they disappear when you leave it. I am also not sure there should be just one inventory set for each user. Why not a number of sub sets that can be combined etc. Maybe the region could restrict access to only a certain set, which might be a set that it provides, when in that region; no space ships when in that serious business region.. Inventory really needs to swap to a more url based system. 

 We are just thinking how to build all this in realXtend. Currently we have thought that each user will have a region specific inventory and a personal inventory. The personal inventory is stored at avatar storage so it will travel with the avatar. 

     Also we need to remember not everything will be interconnected. There will be some applications (or possible grids) that want to be separate from everything else. 

 So I don't think we should be forcing any centralised system on people. And yes from what I've read, I actually think the realxtend avatar system sounds too centralised, but that could be because I don't know enough details of what is planned. I'm not saying its wrong, it just doesn't fit all possible uses. So we need things to at least be modular. 

 Currently realXtend components have been designed so that there are no centralized control points, it would be really a bad planning to build such an architecture on that kind of centralized assumptions. In realXtend architecture, everyone can set up their own avatar storages and user authentication services and decide to trust or not to other user's authentication services. 
 If a virtual world hosting company wants to make a completely walled garden solution with realXtend, that is also possible. They can set up their own avatar authentication and storage and trust no-one else's authentication server (there is a basic allow/deny setting for this). 

  Having said all that, of course I think a lot of people and applications will want to have shared resources like these. Just we have to be careful in how they are implemented. And for opensim at least, that should be a open process/design that everyone can be part of. 

 A team of people almost always reaches better solutions over individual. All the different use cases should be covered in a great care. I hope that realXtend initiative with the distributed avatar architecture is being refined with the OpenSim community involvement. I am sure that there are still many things that need addressing. The realXtend code is available at http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/ and as I mentioned in my earlier mail, we will have a new version, which is based on current OpenSim, soon available.

 Best regards,
 Jani Pirkola
 realXtend program manager

    Sean Dague <sean at dague.net> wrote:

       On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 08:50:33AM -0700, Diva Canto wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 > What happened to realXtend's "avatar system"? Is it being integrated 
 > with OpenSim?

 Short answers. I don't know, and no. The process for code coming into
 OpenSim is to put a patch in mantis. I haven't seen any proposed
 patches in this area in mantis.

 > From where I stand, that, or something like that, is a major 
 > architectural requirement for virtual worlds to get serious. Without the 
 > ability for people to get an identity+inventory that they can port 
 > around through different organization's grids, this is not going to be 
 > that useful. I see a lot of interest from organizations to set up their 
 > own virtual worlds under their control (so, their own grid'ed regions), 
 > but if people have to get accounts with them to visit, this is just not 
 > going to work for serious usages - period.

 Hence you've created the paradox. :)

 * We want everything connected
 * We don't want to trust a single authoritative source for info
 (otherwise you'd be on Second Life)

 Honestly, this is a hard problem to solve, and one that seems a bit
 beyond the current scope. That being said, implementations and research
 in this area which work with OpenSim are always welcomed.

 > I understand there's a ton of stability work to be done, but this 
 > particular architectural decision is really important, even 
 > (especially?) at this early stage; we all trust stability will happen 
 > over time.
 > Is there anything that I can do to boost the efforts in that direction, 
 > besides sending this email?

 Sample peer based User services that allow cross talk would be useful.
 The moral equivalent of OpenID for virtual worlds (because you need more
 than just what openid provides).

 -Sean

 -- 
 __________________________________________________________________

 Sean Dague Mid-Hudson Valley
 sean at dague dot net Linux Users Group
 http://dague.net http://mhvlug.org

 There is no silver bullet. Plus, werewolves make better neighbors
 than zombies, and they tend to keep the vampire population down.
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