No subject

Sat Apr 19 01:53:27 UTC 2014

'm doing is safe?

Thanks and good karma to you all,

 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo

Frisby, Adam wrote:

Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to=
 be addressed.

There are several different audiences here, and consequently several differ=
ent reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into p=
roduction environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall int=
o this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactio=
ns are from there.

To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly=
 impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from=
 personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutel=
y no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the oppos=
ite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that =
production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are op=
erating alpha code.

While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and mai=
ntained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an ac=
cident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - th=
e outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts wou=
ld have been significantly worsened.

Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve thing=
s, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and contin=
ually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avata=
r appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused =
by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Sta=
ck.

The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in cert=
ain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was =
we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted be=
haviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another exampl=
e of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was s=
till broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.

For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format -=
 while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production envir=
onment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid=
 accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator,=
 you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if tod=
ay's example is the norm.

Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - =
yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider=
 the following:

* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent cha=
nges were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on=
 mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).

* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as '=
not suitable for production'*.

* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license o=
n behalf of the generosity of others.

That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and teste=
rs oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - develope=
rs and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code r=
emoved.

If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it b=
eing used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly o=
n the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - t=
he responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not saf=
e for production/.

We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the =
reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-f=
ixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the t=
ime maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the r=
eason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packagin=
g such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.

If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you =
have the following preparations:

1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Someti=
mes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a =
backup system when working with OpenSim.

2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very te=
mpting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stic=
k figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask y=
ourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the pa=
st on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk =
in future.

Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs=
 and are capable of testing hardened revisions.

3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well f=
or content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from t=
ool to tool, know your system.)

4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our=
 clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their =
uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.

Regards,

Adam

-----Original Message-----

From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-users-bounces at l=
ists.berlios.de> [mailto:opensim-users-

bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:bounces at lists.berlios.de>] On Behalf Of Ter=
avus Ovares

Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM

To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>

Cc: jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com<mailto:jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second

Life!

One more reply to this.   Have a look at some positive responses.

http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3D14&t=3D1051&start=3D10

Sincrerely

Teravus

On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares <teravus at gmail.com><mailto:teravus at gmail.com> wro=
te:

Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..

 it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, I don't think it's a

good

idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.

Sincerely

Teravus

On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak <skidz.tweak at gmail.com><mailto:skidz.tweak at gmail.com=
> wrote:

Don't let the door hit you in the butt!

Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!

If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head

saying it

was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.

-----Original Message-----

From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-users-bounces at l=
ists.berlios.de>

[mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of

Jonathan

Greenlee

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM

To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>

Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second

Life!

I want to make sure you understand why my company is now

withdrawing our

good will and support toward OpenSim,

And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several

OpenSim Grids

we were supporting with our business.

--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk><mailto:michaelwri22 at yahoo=
.co.uk> wrote:

From: MW <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk><mailto:michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells

Second Life!

To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>

Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM

While

Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly

most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him

applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.

--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares

<teravus at gmail.com><mailto:teravus at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Teravus Ovares

<teravus at gmail.com><mailto:teravus at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab

Sells Second Life!

To: jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com<mailto:jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com>,

opensim-users at lists.berlios.de<mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>

Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM

FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.

Also, I think it's really important to note that all of

the developers

of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid

SVN for

something that is production.   That includes anything that

 you want

to work.

April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st

a sense of

humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all

releases and

tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for

this very reason.

   We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,

but for

yours.

I know some people on this list don't spend time on

IRC, however, it's

been hinted upon since February that there would likely be

an April

fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most

people don't sit in

IRC, see two paragraphs up.

Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to

use SVN, then

likely your avatar were stick-bugged.

I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN

revisions are

risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad

practice to use them

unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of

people thought

it was funny.  The people who did not were in

 the far minority.

Sincerely

Teravus

On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee

<jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com><mailto:jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com> wrote:

This was funny.

Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood

<collingwood.7 at osu.edu><mailto:collingwood.7 at osu.edu>

wrote:

This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect

panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --

uniformed guards at sim

crossings

--  dogs and cats living together -- it's the

END!!

Linden Lab Sells Second Life!

http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-

second-life/

--

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My advice would be run both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

We don’t up the protocol version too often – so =
there’s nothing
stopping you from running a handful of regions at trunk, and the remainder =
on
stable. If you have customers involved, while we appreciate the feedback &#=
8211; I would
probably say stick with stable there. <o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For your own testing purposes, running trunk isn’t a b=
ad option –
and it also gives you the flexibility that if something is broken majorly, =
you
still have all your stable regions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

To be fair, the 0.6.3 release was not fantastic – the =
avatar bug
should have probably been fixed before that was tagged. I think in future t=
hat
complaint has registered pretty soundly and releases might be more thorough=
ly
tested through release candidates.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Adam<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtex=
t'>
opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Sheridan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 1 April 2009 6:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> opensim-users at lists.berlios.de<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re:
[SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are ru=
nning
high, so I thread lightly while writing this...  <br>
<br>
For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out our g=
rid
we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a weekly up=
date
process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop flying by I'll sh=
ut
down, back up, then update everything to that Sunday's SVN.  After the
update is complete I'll go around in world, try a few tests to make sure th=
at
everything is in one piece and that basic functionality is there.  So =
far
there have only been a handful of times that I've had to cancel or roll bac=
k an
update due to broken functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that he=
avy
changes were taking place. <br>
<br>
As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is alpha
software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to week.  =
So
far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and content save a few
mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where they won't go away) pr=
ims. 
However in most cases workarounds were available and all users were told ho=
w to
go about utilizing them.  As an added measure, just in case we rely on=
 the
weekly backups as well periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files.  <br=
>
<br>
My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while we a=
re
building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute back to OpenS=
im
in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft copy of our
community standards for more on this:  <a
href=3D"http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&am=
p;view=3Darticle&id=3D56&Itemid=3D60">http://www.pseudospace.net/jo=
omla/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&view=3Darticle&id=3D56&Item=
id=3D60</a>)<br>
<br>
Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production regardless o=
f
whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well, we are sure =
to
make it quite clear to the few users that we do have (albeit not many as we=
 do
not yet have any completed or usable environments other then Ellis) that bo=
th
OpenSim as the underlying software and Pseudospace as the service itself ar=
e
under heavy development and could be unstable at times.  <br>
<br>
Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different realm =
then
OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can understand the r=
isks
of running untested software for production uses, however in this case I'm
unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing back to the community =
in
whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or riding the bleeding edge of =
the
wave, yet after reading the prior posts I'm suddenly not sure if simply bac=
king
up, exporting, and rolling back is as safe as I thought.  From the
standpoint of those who develop OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing =
is
safe?<br>
<br>
Thanks and good karma to you all,<br>
<br>
 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo<br>
<br>
Frisby, Adam wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>

<pre>Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that ne=
ed to be addressed.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>There =
are several different audiences here, and consequently several different re=
actions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into product=
ion environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this=
 group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are=
 from there.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>To the produc=
tion users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, ho=
wever as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal dev=
elopers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarante=
es about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the bes=
t practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production us=
ers should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha=
 code.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>While we have gener=
ally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - =
trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the data=
base became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this l=
ist would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been signif=
icantly worsened.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Often, d=
evelopers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we=
 cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually im=
prove the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appear=
ance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by remov=
ing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The short term result of that =
change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period=
 of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more=
 protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good thi=
ngs to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend a=
nyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and thi=
s is a regular occurance.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>=
For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format -=
 while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production envir=
onment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid=
 accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator,=
 you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if tod=
ay's example is the norm.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>=
Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - =
yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider=
 the following:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>* The impa=
ct was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were =
made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (a=
nd is no longer in trunk anyway).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>* You are running a =
version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for pro=
duction'*.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>* You are receiving a product for free unde=
r an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>That april fools joke was /only=
 ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The inten=
ded audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the releas=
e candidate version had the offending code removed.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o=
:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If you want to put OpenSim into production, fanta=
stic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow th=
e advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk in=
to production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your sho=
ulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></pre><pre>We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim=
 - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patc=
hes version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable vers=
ion. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the ne=
ed, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more releas=
e-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packag=
es.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If you are a corporate=
 user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following pre=
parations:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>1. Have a stabl=
e revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show u=
p randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system w=
hen working with OpenSim.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>=
2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very te=
mpting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stic=
k figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask y=
ourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the pa=
st on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk =
in future.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Only upgrade pa=
st post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capabl=
e of testing hardened revisions.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pr=
e><pre>3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works=
 well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies=
 from tool to tool, know your system.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:=
p></pre><pre>4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep s=
everal of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it wor=
ks for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors=
.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Adam<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:=
p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>  <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-----Origin=
al Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de">opensim-users-bounce=
s at lists.berlios.de</a> [<a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users">mailto:opensim-users</a>-<o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e><a
href=3D"mailto:bounces at lists.berlios.de">bounces at lists.berlios.de</a>] On B=
ehalf Of Teravus Ovares<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 =
2:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cc: <a
href=3D"mailto:jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com">jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com</a><o=
:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab =
Sells Second<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Life!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o=
:p></pre><pre>One more reply to this.   Have a look at some posit=
ive responses.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3D14&t=3D1051&star=
t=3D10">http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3D14&t=3D1051&star=
t=3D10</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Sincrerely<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Teravus<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><=
o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares <a
href=3D"mailto:teravus at gmail.com"><teravus at gmail.com></a> wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Now now, le=
ts be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April foole=
d..<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, =
I don't think it's a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>      <o=
:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

<pre>good<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>idea to glo=
at.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and cont=
inue on.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Sincerely<o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Teravus<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p=
> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak =
<a
href=3D"mailto:skidz.tweak at gmail.com"><skidz.tweak at gmail.com></a> wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>      <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Don't let t=
he door hit you in the butt!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Everyone bitching about t=
his only has theirselves to blame!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>If you can't live w=
ith that fact, keep making up crap in your head<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> =
       <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>saying it<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>was someone=
 else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o=
:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>F=
rom: <a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de">opensim-users-bounce=
s at lists.berlios.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[<a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de">mailto:opensim-users=
-bounces at lists.berlios.de</a>] On Behalf Of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> &nbs=
p;      <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>Jonathan<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Greenlee<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>To: <a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Lin=
den Lab Sells Second<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>     &nb=
sp;  <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>Life!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p> =
</o:p></pre><pre>I want to make sure you understand why my company is now<o=
:p></o:p></pre><pre>        <o:p></o:p><=
/pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>withdrawing our<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></p=
re>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>good will a=
nd support toward OpenSim,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>And why we are withdrawing =
our financial support from several<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>   &=
nbsp;    <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>OpenSim Grids<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre=
>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>we were sup=
porting with our business.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre=
>--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW <a
href=3D"mailto:michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk"><michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk></=
a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>  &nbs=
p;     <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>From: MW <a
href=3D"mailto:michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk"><michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk></=
a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden =
Lab Sells<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>       &n=
bsp;  <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>Second Life!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>To: <a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM<o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre>While<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Teravus did the april 1st joke, al=
l of core (or certainly<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>most of it) knew about it. And=
 we fully supported him<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>applying it. As he said it was=
 never in a tagged version.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pr=
e>--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:teravus at gmail.com"><teravus at gmail.com></a> wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre>From: Teravus Ovares<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:teravus at gmail.com"><teravus at gmail.com></a><o:p></o:p><=
/pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab<o:p></o:p>=
</pre><pre>Sells Second Life!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href=3D"mailto:jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com">jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com</a>,<=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM<o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1=
 joke was my idea.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Also, I=
 think it's really important to note that all of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the d=
evelopers<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of OpenSimulator have, since day one told pe=
ople to avoid<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>SVN for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>something t=
hat is production.   That includes anything that<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre> you want<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to work.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></pre><pre>April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1=
st<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>a sense of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>humor is required w=
hen using SVN.   We made sure that all<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>relea=
ses and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in i=
t for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>this very reason.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> &nb=
sp; We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>but for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>yours.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> <=
/o:p></pre><pre>I know some people on this list don't spend time on<o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre>IRC, however, it's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>been hinted upon sinc=
e February that there would likely be<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>an April<o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre>fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre>people don't sit in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>IRC, see two parag=
raphs up.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Now, if despite =
our warnings and hints, you continued to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>use SVN, then=
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>likely your avatar were stick-bugged.<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I reiterate what has been said all along.=
   Direct SVN<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>revisions are<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre>practice to use them<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>unless you've thoroughly loo=
ked them over.   A lot of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>people thought<o:p=
></o:p></pre><pre>it was funny.  The people who did not were in<o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre> the far minority.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></p=
re><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Sincerely<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></pre><pre>Teravus<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pr=
e><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre><a
href=3D"mailto:jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com"><jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com&g=
t;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>      &nbs=
p;   <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p> =
</o:p></pre><pre>This was funny.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Vandalising everyone'=
s avatar was not.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> &n=
bsp;          <o:p></o:p></pre=
>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>On Wed, Apr=
 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>   &=
nbsp;          <o:p></o:p></pr=
e></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre><a href=3D"mailto:collingwood.7 at osu.edu"><collingwood.7 at osu.edu>=
</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>        &=
nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre>This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect<=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre>panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --<o:p></o:p>=
</pre><pre>          &nbs=
p;   <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>uniformed guards at sim<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>crossings<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>          <o:p></o:p></p=
re>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>--  do=
gs and cats living together -- it's the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>  &n=
bsp;           <o:p></o:p=
></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>END!!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>       &=
nbsp;  <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Linden Lab =
Sells Second Life!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>     &nbsp=
;        <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p> =
</o:p></pre><pre>         &nbs=
p;      <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre><a href=3D"http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-s=
ells">http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells</a>-<=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre>        <o:p></o:p>=
</pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>second-life/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>--<o:p></o:=
p></pre><pre>          &n=
bsp;   <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>______________=
_________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Opensim-users mailin=
g list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>   &=
nbsp;        <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquo=
te>

<pre> <a href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-use=
rs">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p><=
/pre><pre>          <o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>Opensim-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users">https://li=
sts.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p=
> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>=
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o=
:p></pre><pre>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p=
> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p=
></o:p></pre><pre>Opensim-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users">https://li=
sts.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p=
> </o:p></pre><pre>        &nb=
sp; <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>______________=
_________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Opensim-users mailin=
g list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users">https://li=
sts.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p=
> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p=
></o:p></pre><pre>Opensim-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users">https://li=
sts.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p=
> </o:p></pre><pre>        <o:p></o=
:p></pre></blockquote>

</blockquote>

<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>O=
pensim-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users">https://li=
sts.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbs=
p;   <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>O=
pensim-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users at lists.berlios.=
de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users">https://li=
sts.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbs=
p; <o:p></o:p></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

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