[Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts
Diva Canto
diva at metaverseink.com
Sun Nov 18 15:17:18 UTC 2012
Snowcrash,
You came here to ask for feedback on your tool. You got what you asked for.
FYI, the next release of the diva distro will include a TOS module that
people can customize with their own TOS text. Depending on how your tool
develops, I may add code to the diva distro to block your tool, or, at
least, make it impractical.
Having said that, I appreciate the heads up. Good luck.
Diva
On 11/18/2012 1:24 AM, Snowcrash Short wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 3:31 AM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com
> <mailto:melanie at t-data.com>> wrote:
>
> Even a "grid transfer" flag would not mean that this software would
> honor it if modified by a third party. As an open source release
> "MyInventory" should be named "MyCopybot".
>
> Any protection which relies on obscurity is just an illusion, wanting
> MyInventory to be closed source denies legitimate users access to the
> benefits of an opensource tool for legitimate use, which the badguys
> already have today.
>
> On top of that, the
> inventories don't belong to the users. They belong to the creators
> of the items and to the grids where they were uploaded and are stored.
>
>
> That's where you and I see things very differently. The IP rights of
> inventory content as a general rule belongs to the content creators,
> the use rights belongs to the end user. The grids and regions really
> have no standing, they serve the same role as website providers.
>
> in the ideal world, grids and regions would not have a permanent asset
> store, nor a permanent inventory store. These are brought along by the
> user when the user logs into the grid and removed when the user logs
> out again. This way the metaverse would better match the mental model
> of most users and incidentally remove one issue of scalability,
> although I admit it is a minor issue.
>
> But I digress, this thread - to me - isn't about what overall
> architecture to consider, but about what reasonable changes the Open
> Simulator community would like to have in a tool where one of the
> features mimics what I believe the TPV "Stored Inventory" has
> today. Admittedly the tool offers an extended download mechanism for
> grids where the end users rights has not been limited by a TOS, hence
> my initial request, so MyInventory can help the user from violating
> the TOS.
>
> I am a bit saddend by the vitriol in some of the replies I have
> received, they do not bode well for the future co-operation.
>
> best regards
> Snowcrash
>
> Melanie
>
> On 18/11/2012 00:47, Teravus Ovares wrote:
> > "I hope this puts you somewhat at ease"
> >
> > This puts nobody at ease if the source code is going to be released.
> > In fact, I'm just going to call out here that you still have not
> argued a
> > legitimate use case for it, and by legitimate... I mean
> something that
> > doesn't violate a terms of service and/or breach of contract and
> 'normal
> > course of business' expectations. Since there's no legitimate
> use at this
> > time, your tool can only be used to do illegal stuff and that is
> illegal in
> > most countries. Just making my position clear. If you
> want a
> > legitimate use, then 'make one' by implementing BSD licensed
> code changes
> > in OpenSimulator to allow content creators to mark their content
> as 'grid
> > transfer'.. beyond that, I cannot approve of this action.
> >
> > That is all
> >
> > Teravus
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Snowcrash Short
> > <snowcrash.short at gmail.com <mailto:snowcrash.short at gmail.com>>wrote:
> >
> >> HI
> >>
> >> Whether your effort is worth while is a question only you can
> answer.
> >>
> >> What I can tell you is that my software will not change
> anything to the
> >> assets on your server, it won't remove any assets or copy any
> assets,
> >> except those that are in the users inventory, and if you tell
> me the domain
> >> name you are using, I will implement the same protection
> against theft as
> >> is required for third party viewers on Linden Labs grids.
> >>
> >> I hope this puts you somewhat at ease.
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >> Snowcrash.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 2:11 PM, InuYasha Meiji
> <inuyasha.meiji at gmail.com <mailto:inuyasha.meiji at gmail.com>>wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am sorry, I am a bit prone to mood swings, on account of
> being both, an
> >>> insulin dependent diabetic and after an 8 year wait on
> dialysis, I am on
> >>> kidney transplant immune suppressants. This whole
> conversation is starting
> >>> to depress the %^&* out of me, wondering if all of this is
> worth my time
> >>> and money anymore. When I discovered Opensim, I thought,
> finally I can
> >>> have enough land to build something impressive. I once built
> the most
> >>> important building of Shuri called the Seiden of Shuri in a
> sim called
> >>> Butler in Secondlife. Now I could build the entire castle on
> my own grid,
> >>> and choose a time period and scale. With enough research to
> build a
> >>> historically accurate Castle during its golden era.. I have
> researched
> >>> more then 5 years on this project, only to be sure I had
> enough detail and
> >>> knowledge of the culture to create what was around in the late
> 16th early
> >>> 17th century.
> >>>
> >>> I have been saving money by not eating as well, I lost 32
> pounds in
> >>> three months. It should be another year, or year and a half,
> to get a
> >>> monster of a server to run it on. As I save up, prices cme
> down to built
> >>> a twin AMD 3+ Bulldozers each with 16 cores to run it on.
> >>>
> >>> This conversation has me thinking only about people stealing
> my assets,
> >>> makeing me think, why bother. To me the realease of
> Snowcrashe's
> >>> software makes it easy for anyone to just freely grab all my
> work, I give
> >>> on my grid, for use on my grid, and drag it off someplace,
> even SL to
> >>> resell and use no matter how I try to protect myself and my
> work. Also
> >>> from what he said other "black hatters" can do it ANYWAYS. To
> me this
> >>> means hours of hand texturing, the hours I spent building,
> till my one good
> >>> eye gives me such a headache I pop tylonol like candy.
> >>>
> >>> IT takes me more time and effort to do as much as some with
> only one
> >>> working eye. I want it to stay here on my grid unless I
> choose to sell it
> >>> in another grid like Secondlife. I also don't want my grid a
> 16th-17th
> >>> century grid becoming filled with airplanes and cars and other
> modern
> >>> items. Can someone tell me now, why should I even put more
> work into
> >>> creating this world and taking any more of my life creating
> anything
> >>> anymore??
> >>>
> >>> InuYasha.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/17/2012 2:47 AM, Snowcrash Short wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 3:50 PM, What Virtual World - Martin
> Forster <
> >>>> blackberry at forsterinternet.nl
> <mailto:blackberry at forsterinternet.nl> <mailto:blackberry@
> <mailto:blackberry@>**forsterinternet.nl
> <http://forsterinternet.nl><blackberry at forsterinternet.nl
> <mailto:blackberry at forsterinternet.nl>>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello Snowcrash,
> >>>> I think it is good having software to backup your items
> but....
> >>>> As melanie sayed before, the ability to backup "Any" item
> would
> >>>> not be a good idea as your software will be banned from major
> >>>> grids due to this.
> >>>> To be honest we would also blacklist your software if we
> think it
> >>>> can be at harm for the creators in our grid.
> >>>> Please think if this:
> >>>> Most people can not make a "copybot vieuwer" as the
> things people
> >>>> need for that are available but also complicated to build
> if you
> >>>> dont have any experiance.
> >>>> If your software is easy to compile without any knowledge
> it will
> >>>> be a base for people to create these "copybot's" with.
> >>>> This will not be the best advertisment for your software
> in my
> >>>> believe.
> >>>> I think it will be best not to make it an opensource
> project ..
> >>>> but just distribute only in binary form.
> >>>> Also making it TPV compliant will be even better.
> >>>> If it protects content from beeing ilegaly copied on "any
> grid" we
> >>>> will support it for sure.
> >>>> Just my two cents ...
> >>>>
> >>>> The backup feature, which really is only a small part of the
> overall
> >>>> featureset, currently operates in one of two modes, TPV
> compliant mode and
> >>>> unrestricted mode. MyInventory forces the download component
> to be TPV
> >>>> compatible when connecting to any known Linden Labs grid (and
> similar
> >>>> protection is underway for other grids), My original mail had
> two topics.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Which grids would like to have the same hardcoded
> protection level
> >>>> against unrestricted download as Linden Labs
> >>>> 2) This tool may - if it becomes popular - create a lot of
> duplicate
> >>>> assets, therefore I came up with a suggestion on how to
> alleviate this
> >>>> problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> Going closed source is simply "security by obscurity" under a
> different
> >>>> name, the "black hatters" already have the ability to take
> what they want,
> >>>> claiming that content creators assets are safe is simply not
> true, and that
> >>>> fact holds for Linden Labs grids as well.
> >>>>
> >>>> Even if you decide to block MyInventory, the blocking tools
> are so
> >>>> inadequate in these days of fast recycling DHCP servers, that
> all you will
> >>>> manage to do is to block out legitimate users, the "black
> hatters" can
> >>>> easily get around these limitations. And is that really what
> you want?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>> Martin Forster
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> *From:* Snowcrash Short
> <mailto:snowcrash.short at gmail.
> <mailto:snowcrash.short at gmail.>**com<snowcrash.short at gmail.com
> <mailto:snowcrash.short at gmail.com>>
> >>>> >
> >>>> *To:* opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
> >>>> <mailto:opensim-users at lists.
> <mailto:opensim-users at lists.>**berlios.de
> <http://berlios.de><opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>>
> >>>> >
> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:44 AM
> >>>> *Subject:* [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
> >>>>
> >>>> (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid
> operators/grid nauts
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> I've been working on a client side tool for
> decentralizing
> >>>> user inventories, which I will release as an open
> source tool
> >>>> in two weeks, some of the features may be relevant to
> grid
> >>>> operators.
> >>>>
> >>>> The basic premise of the tool is that the inventory
> and the
> >>>> backing assets of the inventory items really should be
> >>>> controlled by the user. The tool is born out of a
> frustration
> >>>> of having visited a number of grids. Each visit to a
> new grid
> >>>> presents me with an empty inventory, and I can then
> spend time
> >>>> searching for suitable item, clothing, attachments and
> >>>> other accessories.
> >>>>
> >>>> For this purpose I have created a tool which will
> allow me to
> >>>> backup my inventory to a local cache and then upload the
> >>>> contents to another grid.
> >>>>
> >>>> If my tool becomes popular, both the upload and download
> >>>> mechanisms may have some impact on the
> grid-operators, hence
> >>>> this email to serve as a notice.
> >>>>
> >>>> The basic architecture is pretty simple, consisting of a
> >>>> number of import agents, which can import the users
> inventory
> >>>> and backing assets to a local database, and a number
> of upload
> >>>> agents which can upload inventory content to a
> specific account.
> >>>>
> >>>> Backup/Import
> >>>> There are two import agents, one which will import
> .iar files
> >>>> and one which works very much like I believe "Stored
> >>>> Inventory" works, which can backup the inventory of
> an avatars
> >>>> inventory. Avatar backup/Import is governed by a policy.
> >>>> Currently there are two policies, one complying with
> a very
> >>>> restrictive interpretation of the Linden Labs policy on
> >>>> backups, and a completely unrestricted policy, where
> anything
> >>>> that can be downloaded will be downloaded.
> >>>>
> >>>> When a new account is registered in MyInventory it
> checks if
> >>>> the account is for a Linden Lab grid and limits the
> choices of
> >>>> policies to policies suitable for LL's TOS, I cannot
> and do
> >>>> not know if other grids have similar policies, I can well
> >>>> imagine that Avination has a similar restrictions,
> and would
> >>>> like similar logic implemented to restrict the
> download. Any
> >>>> grid operator which would like to have backup
> governed by a
> >>>> more restrictive policy are invited to notify me and
> I will
> >>>> attempt to implement the policy prior to the first
> release of
> >>>> the source code. or supply patches at a later time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Upload/Export
> >>>> MyInventory supports two mechanisms for uploading
> inventory
> >>>> content, traditional upload using UDP/CAPS and direct
> access
> >>>> to the inventory and asset web-services.
> >>>> Due to limitations in the UDP/CAPS protocol each
> upload will
> >>>> create new assets, and as of my latest read of the Open
> >>>> Simulator code the asset store does not support "single
> >>>> instance assets", i.e. it does not use a checksum to
> verify if
> >>>> the asset already exists, for this reason MyInventory
> prefers
> >>>> to upload using direct access to asset and inventory
> >>>> web-services.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would propose that the grids which chooses to support
> >>>> MyInventory augment their "GridInfoService" entries
> with the
> >>>> url's for the asset and inventory web-services, e.g.
> >>>>
> >>>> [GridInfoService]
> >>>> assets = http://assets.osgrid.org
> >>>> inventory = http://inventory.osgrid.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards
> >>>> Snowcrash
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> >>>> ------------
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________**_________________
> >>>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>>> Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
> >>>> <mailto:Opensim-users at lists.
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> <http://berlios.de><Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>>
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> https://lists.berlios.de/**mailman/listinfo/opensim-users<https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> <mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
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> >>>> berlios.de <http://berlios.de>
> <Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> ______________________________**______________________________**
> >>> ____________
> >>>
> >>> Opensim User: In Gridmode on Version 0.7.4. Nine Instances
> with 56
> >>> Regions. on Windows 7, 64-bit. Phenom 9500 2.2 GHz Quad Core,
> Terabyte Hard
> >>> Drive, 8gig DDR2 RAM. Used XAMPP to load PHP Version 5.3.0,
> Apache
> >>> and MySQL 5.1.41-community edition. Groups, Profiles, Vivox
> Voice and
> >>> Offline Messages all working. (Not yet Public, 6 users allowed
> Now).
> >>> ______________________________**______________________________**
> >>> ____________
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________**_________________
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> >>> Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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