[Opensim-users] grid operation

Paul Fishwick fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
Thu Dec 4 22:47:15 UTC 2008


Mini-grid sounds right to me. The question in most minds
may relate to defining a valid set of heuristics for performance analysis
to figure out what 'mini' actually means.

What are the rules of thumb to determine where one requires a grid
vs. the default standalone in terms of

 a) # of prims/assets
 b) # of regions
 c) # of agents
 d) # (and relative complexity of) scripts
 ...

These heuristics would help guide the appropriate use. My guess
is that 95% of users would do well with StandAlone. It is what
I use, for sure. The other 5% are running services for those who do
not wish to manage their own mini-grids.

The nice thing about StandAlone is that one can get up and running
in under 5 minutes - no complicated databases and no separate
UGAIM config files.

It may be what is needed is a stepping-stone guide to opensim, something
I've been working toward and will try to create something for the wiki.
It starts out with the small circular island and moves forward. Having
some answers on the heuristics from people who have done informal
performance analysis would be of  help.


-paul


Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
> Diva Canto wrote:
>   
>> Very nice beginning!
>>
>> I would take off judgment about the good-ness/bad-ness of specific 
>> configurations (standalone vs. grid). In fact, I have a different 
>> opinion of what's written there; there's the easy&right way (standalone, 
>> similar to apache server, but for 3D VWs) and the hard-but-bigger way 
>> (grid). So let's just not make judgments :-)
>>
>> Before I take the scissors out, I thought I'd raise this issue here, to 
>> make sure there isn't anything deeper going on... Is standalone being 
>> considered "not right" officially?
>>     
>
> There are some who think standalone should effectively be a mini-grid (e.g. all the services are run in separate 
> processes and use the same comms as the grid, rather than running in a single process).  However, not everybody shares 
> this view - I'm not yet convinced, for instance.
>
> Of course, it may also be that the terminology is retained even if the implementation changes.
>
> So I wouldn't say that standalone is considered "not right".
>
> And I didn't actually get any sense that one way was considered better than another in the text - did I miss something?
>
>   
>> Kyle Hamilton wrote:
>>     
>>> Could someone please read
>>> http://opensimulator.org/index.php?title=OpenSim:Introduction_and_Definitions
>>> and fix any glaring errors or omissions I may have made?  There's a
>>> couple of TODO items therein (at least one needs examination by people
>>> familiar with Assets, Inventory, and how they're managed), and I'd
>>> like to solicit feedback on how I can write these kinds of things
>>> better.
>>>
>>> -Kyle H
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Stefan Andersson <stefan at tribalmedia.se> wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Really, if somebody would be so excellent as to take this whole thread, and
>>>> out of the questions and answers on it, make a wiki page, called
>>>> 'OpenSim:Introduction and Definitions' or something, that would be SO
>>>> golden.
>>>>
>>>> You seldom get these opportunities to learn from noob confusion. This is an
>>>> excellent thread.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Stefan Andersson
>>>> Tribal Media AB
>>>>
>>>> Join the 3d web revolution : http://tribalnet.se/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:16:35 -0800
>>>> From: diva at metaverseink.com
>>>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] grid operation
>>>>
>>>> Yes, those are all functions of the 3D space service currently. Scripting
>>>> and backend modules provide programmable behavior for the objects and agents
>>>> in the 3D environment.
>>>> The scripts are stored in the asset server, just like all other assets. They
>>>> are brought in to the region when the region starts and run on the same
>>>> process that runs the region. When you create a new script in a region, that
>>>> script is cached in that region's asset cache (in memory), and is sent to
>>>> the asset server for persistent storage.
>>>>
>>>> This is the current architecture. I remember vaguely someone suggesting to
>>>> move the script engine(s) to a different server, as an alternative physical
>>>> architecture. In that case, the region wouldn't cache the scripts, they
>>>> would go to that other server; only the effects of the scripts would be seen
>>>> inworld. Not sure how far that idea went.
>>>>
>>>> This thread is making suspect that many people might be under the wrong
>>>> impression that just because they have their own region server connected to
>>>> someone's grid, they have 100% control over the assets in the region and
>>>> even in their inventories. That is not correct. The persistent storage of
>>>> everything is done in the grid-level servers, therefore under the control of
>>>> whoever runs those servers. If the asset server kaputs, and there were no
>>>> backups, you will loose just about everything you have in your region and in
>>>> your inventory. (This is true independent of who has the control over the
>>>> asset server, so maybe it's a good thing to have them on someone else's
>>>> asset server, you can blame someone else :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, it's running scripts for prims in the region also isn't it…  And
>>>> physics for physical items in the scene the region is managing. (These are
>>>> assumptions, feel free to clarify, like Paul I'm trying to learn.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Diva Canto
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:36 AM
>>>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] grid operation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right.
>>>> When your region is connected to a physical grid, your region is *just* a 3D
>>>> space server, nothing else.
>>>> All assets belong to the asset server, all inventories belong to the
>>>> inventory server, all users belong to the user server.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Fishwick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Got it. So, the data are stored on the asset server. If this is
>>>>
>>>> so, it doesn't seem that my region server (the opensim instance
>>>>
>>>> I might run as part of someone's grid) is doing much of
>>>>
>>>> anything since any change in prim or agent attribute must be
>>>>
>>>> conveyed back to the grid's asset server.
>>>>
>>>> -p
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Diva Canto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By "assets" I mean the data itself, the blobs/text/etc.
>>>>
>>>> The region prims/primitems storage holds only references to that data.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Look inside OpenSim.db. There is no "data" there, only meta data and
>>>>
>>>> references to the data (by UUID) stored on the asset server.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul Fishwick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When you say the prims and primitems are not assets, I am confused.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding was that all items are assets, identified by their unique
>>>>
>>>> UUIDs. If I follow the point about the asset server, the asset servers
>>>>
>>>> stores all asset UUID references by region, but that the specific asset
>>>>
>>>> attributes (i.e., position of an object, or its texture) are stored by UUID
>>>>
>>>> in the region's DB?
>>>>
>>>> -p
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Diva Canto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The asset server holds the assets for the entire collection of regions
>>>>
>>>> on that physical grid. For example, when you create an object inworld,
>>>>
>>>> the asset corresponding to that object is stored on the asset server.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The region caches some assets in memory. For example, in that creation
>>>>
>>>> scenario, the asset would be on the cache of the region too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The region also has a database storing "prims" and "primitems". These
>>>>
>>>> are not assets; they are the prims that are inworld at any given time.
>>>>
>>>> The prims refer to assets (by UUID) that are stored on the asset
>>>>
>>>> server. Which, as the previous sentence says, may be cached in memory
>>>>
>>>> of the region.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul Fishwick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right. But what, exactly, are these servers doing?  I guess I am trying
>>>>
>>>> to get at more of the architectural details of what types of messages are
>>>>
>>>> sent among servers (over the network and to the database(s)). For
>>>>
>>>> example, there are the UGAIM servers in grid mode. Does the grid's "A"
>>>>
>>>> server hold all of the assets on your region that  you plugged into the
>>>>
>>>> grid? Or does your region database (on the same computer as your
>>>>
>>>> opensim.instance) take care of that?
>>>>
>>>> -paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ideia Boa wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you run 1 region in a grid, you only run OpenSim server, the others
>>>>
>>>> servers (User, Grid, Asset, Inventory and Message) are running on the
>>>>
>>>> Grid servers with the grid OpenSim server.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul Fishwick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If one hooks a region to a grid, what functions does the
>>>>
>>>> region server (operating on your computer) perform? The
>>>>
>>>> Grid servers are running asset and inventory management,
>>>>
>>>> so does this mean that the grid A and I machines handle
>>>>
>>>> the assets and inventory or is that the function of the region
>>>>
>>>> server that connects to the grid?
>>>>
>>>> -p
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>     
>>>>         
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>>>       
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>
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>   


-- 
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor and Director, Digital Arts and Sciences Programs
University of Florida
Computer & Information Science and Eng. Dept.
Bldg. CSE, Room 301
P.O. Box 116120
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
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Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick




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