[Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED)

Michael Emory Cerquoni nebadon2025 at gmail.com
Sat May 16 00:27:31 UTC 2015 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Well, it appears again that the discussion boils down to should a change
> be made to alpha code that will fix a problem which has already cost people
> real tome and money, vs not fixing it because some people may have to
> adjust scripts to accommodate getting real/accurate data.
>
> Seriously?
>
> Sent from my iPad Air 2
>
> On Apr 25, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US) <
> douglas.maxwell3.civ at mail.mil> wrote:
>
>  I have heard this point brought up a few times and we concur.  As it
> turns out, the statistics we collected during the joint ARL/Intel DSG
> events (all 6 of them) are now in question.  We published results from
> those events in multiple conferences.  Further, I am devoting a significant
> amount of engineering labor hours to a team that currently includes 6
> computer scientists, two of which have PhD's.  The realization that we had
> been testing and sampling the open simulator for physics and scalability on
> bogus simulator data was shocking.
>
>
>
> Folks, you may not realize this but knowingly propagating the erroneous
> code is intellectually dishonest and has already wasted precious research
> funding.  That we are even debating whether or not to fix the simulator
> reporting mechanisms is disturbing.
>
>
>
> What we should be debating is "how".  The MOSES project has provided a
> solution that works for us and we need your knowledgeable feedback as core
> code experts to know if our solution is feasible for the community.
>
>
>  Douglas Maxwell, MSME
> Science and Technology Manager
> Virtual World Strategic Applications
> U.S. Army Research Lab
> Human Research & Engineering Directorate
> Simulation & Training Technology Center
> (c) (407) 242-0209 <%28407%29%20242-0209>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org [
> opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org] on behalf of Diva Canto [
> diva at metaverseink.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2015 2:05 PM
> *To:* opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
>  I would like to hear from people who have either monitoring tools or
> bots that rely on the incorrect physics FPS. If these people exist, let's
> hear what pain it would cause them to correct the number. Otherwise, I
> don't see any reason to continue to report  an incorrect number, and I see
> many reasons for fixing it: several PhD students have now either wasted a
> lot of their time or even made wrong data analysis because of this.
>
>
> On 4/24/2015 9:08 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote:
>
> It is more than just bots that worry me, many people have written custom
> monitoring tools to monitor region performance to automatically restart
> regions, not to mention script that could potentially rely on osGetRegionStats
> > http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OsGetRegionStats
> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>   we could be
> potentially breaking all of this content if we are talking about long term
> leaving the statistics at these lower numbers, if we are talking about
> eventually having them resume to the normal levels etc.. that is something
> else, and if that is the case I would suggest we start a new branch for
> that work that would eventually merge into master once the work was
> complete.  Like i said I am not against doing this work, but not at the
> expense of causing mass chaos amongst important users and testers of this
> software, how can we say we are improving the software if we are rushing
> into breaking stuff people may be very reliant on.
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 12:01 AM, Diva Canto <diva at metaverseink.com
> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>
>> I'm +1 on the changes. I find it very unsettling to be shown a physics
>> fps that is incorrect, and some of my students have been very confused
>> about it in the past. I don't think the changes will affect bots in any
>> significant way, but if someone can point me to a bot that will be
>> affected, I would like to know.
>>
>>
>> On 4/24/2015 6:23 PM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:
>>
>>  I like the idea of a multiplier for physics fps, however I see no need
>> for altering the value. If a reported number is linearly scaled, then any
>> change in that number is also scaled proportionally. For example, if I have
>> 55 fps reported for a real fps of 11 due to a scale factor of 5, all I need
>> to do is divide by 5 to get the 11 back. If the 55 decreases by 10%, the 11
>> will also decrease by 10%. It really shouldn't matter as either value will
>> provide the same indication of change in performance.
>>
>>  As far as SL compatibility goes, I usually see a physics fps of 45 for a
>> well running region in SL, not 55. In that case if such compatibility was
>> desired, the factor would be 45/11 or approximately 4.1 rather than 5.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni <
>> nebadon2025 at gmail.com
>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>
>>> Also sounds like a reasonable solution as well, If the goal is to
>>> improve performance in general I am not sure it matters what is actually
>>> reported to the viewer , since i would assume any kind of real analysis
>>> would be done on the back end and not via the viewer #'s
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Mike Chase <
>>> mike.chase at alternatemetaverse.com
>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why not just introduce a new counter and function to fetch the value.
>>>> The current one can always return the SL adjusted value.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 04/24/2015 08:59 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What do you think about making the multiplier a modifiable variable in
>>>> OpenSim.ini?  This will allow anyone who wants to improve performance and
>>>> use the stock #'s and in the meantime people can continue to use the code
>>>> in a meaningful way without having to rewrite scripts and monitoring tools
>>>> to continue testing other code that may be pushed into core, especially if
>>>> the end goal is to get statistics to report back at the original numbers?
>>>> I am mostly just trying to understand the end goal myself.  If that is not
>>>> possible I would suggest this work be moved into a development branch until
>>>> we can get statistics back to the normal numbers again?  Otherwise we are
>>>> talking about locking the code down to all other development until this
>>>> process is complete, and no one has discussed any kind of time frame for
>>>> this level of changes to complete, I would hate to put a complete halt to
>>>> development in order for this to happen.  I am not against doing what you
>>>> suggest, I just want to make sure we do it in the most efficient way
>>>> possible.  Would be good to hear what others in the core development have
>>>> to say, hopefully Justin and Diva and Melanie, Misterblue, BlueWall, you
>>>> guys can chime in here as well, as I am only one person here and for the
>>>> record just voicing my own concerns, I am far from the final say on any of
>>>> this stuff.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US) <
>>>> douglas.maxwell3.civ at mail.mil
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Folks, before we can make any meaningful progress in performance
>>>>> enhancements to the open simulator we have to be able to rely on the
>>>>> simulator statistics.  Currently they are (purposefully) misreported to
>>>>> make the simulator look like it is performing better than it really is.
>>>>> This is not acceptable if we are to dig in and begin to assist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Douglas Maxwell, MSME
>>>>> Science and Technology Manager
>>>>> Virtual World Strategic Applications
>>>>> U.S. Army Research Lab
>>>>> Human Research & Engineering Directorate
>>>>> Simulation & Training Technology Center
>>>>> (c) (407) 242-0209
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> [
>>>>> opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of
>>>>> Melanie [melanie at t-data.com
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 5:56 PM
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>
>>>>> It is also my opinion that this change isn't fit for core. If and
>>>>> when additional stats, like "real fps" and "physics engine fps" can
>>>>> be shown in the viewer, then that would be good but the viewer stats
>>>>> window should continue to show the fudged figures indefinitely. This
>>>>> is because people don't only use scripts but also bots to do
>>>>> monitoring and bots receive the same data the viewer receives.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Melanie
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24/04/2015 23:42, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote:
>>>>> > ok so just so I understand we should now see this actually just
>>>>> display
>>>>> > 11fps? Personally I think this is a bad idea, alot of people may be
>>>>> using
>>>>> > monitoring apps and scripts that look for low fps and restart the
>>>>> region,
>>>>> > we would basically be forcing everyone to rewrite a lot of code to
>>>>> > accommodate a singular purpose? Not quite sure how this improves the
>>>>> > project as a whole.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni <
>>>>> > nebadon2025 at gmail.com
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> ok I will continue testing this for now, we should try to resolve
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> white space issues before it hits core, we can worry about that
>>>>> later
>>>>> >> though. I hope others can start testing this patch as well we need
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> really make sure this does not break any scripts or monitoring apps
>>>>> before
>>>>> >> this changes the core code, so anyone who has the time please do
>>>>> test this
>>>>> >> and let us know if you notice anything change or break, thanks!
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL
>>>>> (US) <
>>>>> >> douglas.maxwell3.civ at mail.mil
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>>> >>> Caveats: NONE
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> What you saw were just warnings about white spaces.  The patch
>>>>> should
>>>>> >>> still
>>>>> >>> apply and work.  We follows the open simulator patch creation
>>>>> guidance
>>>>> >>> explicitly, if you guys have updated instructions for how you want
>>>>> this
>>>>> >>> done -
>>>>> >>> let us know.  Otherwise, you can ignore the warnings.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> v/r -douglas
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Douglas Maxwell, MSME
>>>>> >>> Science and Technology Manager
>>>>> >>> Virtual World Strategic Applications
>>>>> >>> U.S. Army Research Lab
>>>>> >>> Simulation & Training Technology Center (STTC)
>>>>> >>> (c) (407) 242-0209
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> >>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Michael Emory
>>>>> >>> Cerquoni
>>>>> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 2:38 PM
>>>>> >>> To: opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> please check the mantis, i had some trouble applying patch for
>>>>> testing,
>>>>> >>> thanks
>>>>> >>> guys!
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Michael Heilmann <
>>>>> mheilman at ist.ucf.edu
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>         Opensim Devs
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>         Just an FYI, mantis bug #7540 is the first code submission
>>>>> from
>>>>> >>> project
>>>>> >>> MOSES.  Thanks.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>         --
>>>>> >>>         Michael Heilmann
>>>>> >>>         Research Associate
>>>>> >>>         Institute for Simulation and Training
>>>>> >>>         University of Central Florida
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>         Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>> >>>         Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> >>> <blockedhttp://
>>>>> opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>>> >>> Caveats: NONE
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>> >>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
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>>>>> >>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>> > Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>> > http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-dev mailing listOpensim-dev at opensimulator.org <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
Michael Emory Cerquoni
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