[Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dahlia Trimble dahliatrimble at gmail.com
Sat Apr 25 23:57:20 UTC 2015 

Yes OpenSimulator can use all the help it can get. My messages were
intended to help bring the MOSES contributions into core in a way that many
can benefit, and to raise awareness of some caveats. I hope they weren't
misinterpreted by those who are involved in contributing.

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Accepted. But i am not concerned with my feelings, i am concerned with the
> future of OS.
>
> We need help. I cant help, but others can - Intel, Moses, numerous groups
> in Academia. Many would like to help, we just need to balance the pain of
> breaking backwards compatibility with the benefits of funded research into
> making OS better for all of us.
>
> Frank
>
> Sent from my iPad Air 2
>
> On Apr 25, 2015, at 7:38 PM, Dahlia Trimble <dahliatrimble at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> My apologies for upsetting you, Frank. Perhaps it was the use of the
> phrase "academic dishonesty" which influenced my prior message.
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jezz, seriously, this is how you expect to garner serious support from
>> people that can advance OS beyond being a toy that a few people play with.
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2015, at 6:01 PM, Dahlia Trimble <dahliatrimble at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It is indeed unfortunate that questionable results may have been
>> propagated. Please bear in mind that few, if any, developers of
>> OpenSimulator have committed to producing a software which is intended for
>> such purposes. There are likely many artifices in OpenSimulator and in 3D
>> graphics applications in general. I would *strongly suggest* that those who
>> attempt to use the software for such purposes take responsibility for
>> understanding the applicability of this software for their purposes.
>>
>> I will also suggest that a review of the license for OpenSimulator might
>> be in order, quoted here for your convenience:
>>
>>
>>  * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
>>  * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are
>> met:
>>  *     * Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
>>  *       notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
>>  *     * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
>> copyrightD
>>  *       notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
>> the
>>  *       documentation and/or other materials provided with the
>> distribution.
>>  *     * Neither the name of the OpenSimulator Project nor the
>>  *       names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote
>> products
>>  *       derived from this software without specific prior written
>> permission.
>>  *
>>  * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE DEVELOPERS ``AS IS'' AND ANY
>>  * EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
>> IMPLIED
>>  * WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
>>  * DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY
>>  * DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
>> DAMAGES
>>  * (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR
>> SERVICES;
>>  * LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER
>> CAUSED AND
>>  * ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR
>> TORT
>>  * (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE
>> OF THIS
>>  * SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE."
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 4:39 AM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US) <
>> douglas.maxwell3.civ at mail.mil> wrote:
>>
>>>  Good design principles reduce complexity while maintaining or
>>> increasing functionality.  I am not in support of the idea of introducing
>>> multiplier variables into the ini file.  This is for a number of reasons,
>>> one being there are a large number of multiplier variables that could be
>>> needed and the ini file is already complicated enough.  Adding more
>>> variables and code, rather than fixing bad code is not a responsible
>>> solution.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a gut-check opportunity for the devs.  At some point in the
>>> past, somebody made the decision to artificially inflate these numbers and
>>> now (years later), that mistake has caught up with us.  The longer you
>>> wait, the more painful the correction will be.  It should be corrected, and
>>> any monitoring tools updated.  It is the responsible course of action.
>>>
>>>
>>> We are attempting to help you by addressing physics and networking
>>> issues within the Open Simulator.  Step Zero of this process is trusting
>>> the simulator statistics.
>>>
>>>  Douglas Maxwell, MSME
>>> Science and Technology Manager
>>> Virtual World Strategic Applications
>>> U.S. Army Research Lab
>>> Human Research & Engineering Directorate
>>> Simulation & Training Technology Center
>>> (c) (407) 242-0209 <%28407%29%20242-0209>
>>>   ------------------------------
>>> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org [
>>> opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org] on behalf of Michael Emory
>>> Cerquoni [nebadon2025 at gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2015 8:59 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>
>>>   What do you think about making the multiplier a modifiable variable
>>> in OpenSim.ini?  This will allow anyone who wants to improve performance
>>> and use the stock #'s and in the meantime people can continue to use the
>>> code in a meaningful way without having to rewrite scripts and monitoring
>>> tools to continue testing other code that may be pushed into core,
>>> especially if the end goal is to get statistics to report back at the
>>> original numbers?  I am mostly just trying to understand the end goal
>>> myself.  If that is not possible I would suggest this work be moved into a
>>> development branch until we can get statistics back to the normal numbers
>>> again?  Otherwise we are talking about locking the code down to all other
>>> development until this process is complete, and no one has discussed any
>>> kind of time frame for this level of changes to complete, I would hate to
>>> put a complete halt to development in order for this to happen.  I am not
>>> against doing what you suggest, I just want to make sure we do it in the
>>> most efficient way possible.  Would be good to hear what others in the core
>>> development have to say, hopefully Justin and Diva and Melanie, Misterblue,
>>> BlueWall, you guys can chime in here as well, as I am only one person here
>>> and for the record just voicing my own concerns, I am far from the final
>>> say on any of this stuff.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US) <
>>> douglas.maxwell3.civ at mail.mil
>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks, before we can make any meaningful progress in performance
>>>> enhancements to the open simulator we have to be able to rely on the
>>>> simulator statistics.  Currently they are (purposefully) misreported to
>>>> make the simulator look like it is performing better than it really is.
>>>> This is not acceptable if we are to dig in and begin to assist.
>>>>
>>>> Douglas Maxwell, MSME
>>>> Science and Technology Manager
>>>> Virtual World Strategic Applications
>>>> U.S. Army Research Lab
>>>> Human Research & Engineering Directorate
>>>> Simulation & Training Technology Center
>>>> (c) (407) 242-0209
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> [
>>>> opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of
>>>> Melanie [melanie at t-data.com
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 5:56 PM
>>>> To: opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>
>>>> It is also my opinion that this change isn't fit for core. If and
>>>> when additional stats, like "real fps" and "physics engine fps" can
>>>> be shown in the viewer, then that would be good but the viewer stats
>>>> window should continue to show the fudged figures indefinitely. This
>>>> is because people don't only use scripts but also bots to do
>>>> monitoring and bots receive the same data the viewer receives.
>>>>
>>>> - Melanie
>>>>
>>>> On 24/04/2015 23:42, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote:
>>>> > ok so just so I understand we should now see this actually just
>>>> display
>>>> > 11fps? Personally I think this is a bad idea, alot of people may be
>>>> using
>>>> > monitoring apps and scripts that look for low fps and restart the
>>>> region,
>>>> > we would basically be forcing everyone to rewrite a lot of code to
>>>> > accommodate a singular purpose? Not quite sure how this improves the
>>>> > project as a whole.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni <
>>>> > nebadon2025 at gmail.com
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> ok I will continue testing this for now, we should try to resolve the
>>>> >> white space issues before it hits core, we can worry about that later
>>>> >> though. I hope others can start testing this patch as well we need to
>>>> >> really make sure this does not break any scripts or monitoring apps
>>>> before
>>>> >> this changes the core code, so anyone who has the time please do
>>>> test this
>>>> >> and let us know if you notice anything change or break, thanks!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL
>>>> (US) <
>>>> >> douglas.maxwell3.civ at mail.mil
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>> >>> Caveats: NONE
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> What you saw were just warnings about white spaces.  The patch
>>>> should
>>>> >>> still
>>>> >>> apply and work.  We follows the open simulator patch creation
>>>> guidance
>>>> >>> explicitly, if you guys have updated instructions for how you want
>>>> this
>>>> >>> done -
>>>> >>> let us know.  Otherwise, you can ignore the warnings.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> v/r -douglas
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Douglas Maxwell, MSME
>>>> >>> Science and Technology Manager
>>>> >>> Virtual World Strategic Applications
>>>> >>> U.S. Army Research Lab
>>>> >>> Simulation & Training Technology Center (STTC)
>>>> >>> (c) (407) 242-0209
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> >>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of
>>>> Michael Emory
>>>> >>> Cerquoni
>>>> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 2:38 PM
>>>> >>> To: opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> please check the mantis, i had some trouble applying patch for
>>>> testing,
>>>> >>> thanks
>>>> >>> guys!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Michael Heilmann <
>>>> mheilman at ist.ucf.edu
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>         Opensim Devs
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>         Just an FYI, mantis bug #7540 is the first code submission
>>>> from
>>>> >>> project
>>>> >>> MOSES.  Thanks.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>         --
>>>> >>>         Michael Heilmann
>>>> >>>         Research Associate
>>>> >>>         Institute for Simulation and Training
>>>> >>>         University of Central Florida
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>         _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>         Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> >>>         Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> >>> <blockedhttp://
>>>> opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>> >>> Caveats: NONE
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> >>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> >>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> > Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
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>>>> > http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>
>>>
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