[Opensim-dev] Region Crossing State

Vegaslon vegaslon at gmail.com
Mon Jun 16 17:26:15 UTC 2014 

There has been attempts to finish vehicle boarder crossing, the next step
being to transfer the current vehicle state to the next simulator. Each
time it is side tracked by the desire for the Avination code to fit our
code base in this regard. From what I understand there is a backlog of work
required to bring it over and only a hand full of people with the
non-disclosure to complete this work. If this desire was given up it may
very well free up someone's hands to complete the work in their own way.
On Jun 16, 2014 12:45 PM, "Frank Nichols" <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you - the comments are very interesting and while I was aware of the
> security concerns, I didn't realise that was a big part of the hold up. I
> assumed security issues would be the equivalent of walking across a border.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Diva Canto <diva at metaverseink.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  I'm sure vehicle border crossings are important for some situations.
>>
>> For me, they got a lot less important now that OpenSim supports
>> variable-sized regions. There are also alternatives (co-simulation) to
>> moving vehicles along very large areas that are able to avoid crossing
>> borders altogether, therefore avoiding the "bumps" on borders and the extra
>> load that moving vehicles and crossing borders entail. These 2 things
>> (varregions and co-simulation) don't exist in SL, but they're superior in
>> some respects, because they avoid crossing borders altogether; it's much
>> smoother, keeps the load down, and avoids running into security issues.
>>
>> Here's a video showing a large-scale traffic co-simulation:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=291yE_9eefU#t=4m02s
>> Co-simulation means that one simulator has part of the objects, in this
>> case the vehicles, and the other simulators have the rest of the scene
>> objects. The vehicles never cross borders, even though they move along very
>> large distances (in this case, 3km x 1.5km).
>> I talked about how to do this at OSCC'13.
>>
>> This is not to say that I don't support adding proper vehicle border
>> crossing support to OpenSim, if someone cares to do it. +1!
>> But I would never trade the borderless way of moving vehicles for the
>> SL's way of moving vehicles, so vehicle border crossings has been very
>> low priority for me, personally. One of the perks of reimplementing the
>> server-side is that we can do things that can't be done in SL!
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/16/2014 7:10 AM, Frank Nichols wrote:
>>
>> I guess no one cares about region border crossings ...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe someone can answer this - I am aware of NPVs but have never used
>>> them. I am pretty sure than as of a year ago you could not be seated and do
>>> a region border crossing, however a lot of work has gone into OS in that
>>> area in the past 6 months and it may be possible now.
>>>
>>>  Frank
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:22 AM, Mike Higgins <mike at kayaker.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All very good questions, but there is a fundamental assumption that all
>>>> vehicles are physical.
>>>> 1. Can non-physical vehicles (NPVs) cross sim borders?
>>>>     An NPV is a non physical object that uses llSetPos,
>>>> llSetPrimParams, llSetLinkPrimParamsFast(LINK_THIS,[PRIM_POSITION....]) or
>>>> llSetKeyframedMotion to move across a SIM boundary.
>>>>     On some grids, NPVs cross SIM borders just like physical vehicles.
>>>> 2. Can NPVs cross SIM borders with an avatar sitting on them?
>>>> 3. Can NPVs cross SIM borders WITHOUT an avatar sitting on them? (for
>>>> example a ferryboat that makes regular runs from one SIM to another, and
>>>> keeps making the rounds even when empty).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/13/14 10:58 PM, Frank Nichols wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  OS is now 7 years old and the fundamental feature of crossing from
>>>>> one region to another while riding on or in a physical vehicle is not
>>>>> working. I, and most of the community, are aware that there are partial
>>>>> implementations being worked on, and at least one grid has an
>>>>> implementation similar in functionality to SL - but that implementation is
>>>>> not yet available to the OpenSim community in general.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously, if it were easy to implement it would be done - it may well
>>>>> be impossible to implement...
>>>>>
>>>>> PVC below stands for physical vehicle crossings between regions with
>>>>> avatar(s) riding the vehicle(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Is PVC a desirable feature - does the OpenSim community want to be
>>>>> able to ride physical vehicles while crossing region borders? With the
>>>>> implementation of var-regions, crossings are less of a necessary feature -
>>>>> however, a smooth or bump-less crossing combined with variable sized
>>>>> regions would give grid designers a lot of flexibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. What features would be expected of a solution?
>>>>>
>>>>> a. Bump-less region crossings - ie. unlike SL or other
>>>>> implementations, bump-less region crossings would be a desirable feature. I
>>>>> would prefer that region crossings be bump-less - this means to me that
>>>>> there is no movement shuddering visible while crossing, all scripts
>>>>> transfer their running state smoothly, and sounds would continue to play
>>>>> smoothly. A person observing their avatar cross from one region to another
>>>>> would not be able to see/detect any sign that a crossing has just taken
>>>>> place except a script reporting which region it is running in would
>>>>> suddenly begin reporting that it is in the destination region.
>>>>>
>>>>> b. Should PVC be required to work on all physics engines mainly ODE
>>>>> and BulletSim at this time. My feeling is that I would be happy if PVC only
>>>>> worked on BulletSim. I understand that many people still use/prefer ODE -
>>>>> but if PVC only worked on BulletSim (initially) I would feel that would be
>>>>> a good step, and then if there is a demand from the community and someone
>>>>> available to do the work, it could possibly be ported to ODE.
>>>>>
>>>>> c. Would it be necessary to be able to cross between regions running
>>>>> different physics engines? In other words, would the community expect a
>>>>> physical vehicle to be able to cross from a region running ODE into a
>>>>> region running BulletSim?
>>>>>
>>>>> d. Would a “bumpy” crossing between regions running different physics
>>>>> engines be acceptable with a smooth crossing only being available if both
>>>>> the starting and destination regions were running BulletSim.
>>>>>
>>>>> e. Would Scripts need to cross smoothly between starting and ending
>>>>> regions - or would a script restart/recompile be acceptable? What would be
>>>>> acceptable behavior if the configuration of the destination region is
>>>>> different than the starting region concerning scripts. I expect the scripts
>>>>> to stop running and report an error?
>>>>>
>>>>> f. Would a physical vehicle size restriction for PVC be acceptable?
>>>>> What would be the expected result of a “train” (linked set of “train cars”
>>>>> populated with avatars) crossing? Again, I think this should be smooth and
>>>>> bump-less assuming the starting region and destination region meet some
>>>>> criteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> g. What would be acceptable behavior if a PVC is attempted between
>>>>> regions with differing physical link set limitations - such as number of
>>>>> prims, size of physical prims, etc. Would the vehicle be denied access to
>>>>> the destination region if it’s construction exceeded destination region
>>>>> limits?
>>>>>
>>>>> g. What is the expected behavior for PVCs concerning permissions of
>>>>> the vehicle entering and/or leaving regions.For example, would the vehicle
>>>>> flying over a region have the same expectations for access permissions that
>>>>> a avatar flying over a restricted parcel would have?
>>>>>
>>>>> h. What would be the expectations around PVCs and HyperGrid? Would the
>>>>> community want/expect a physical vehicle to be able to be ridden to a
>>>>> different grid via hyper grid technology. If so, would it be required to
>>>>> work in any combinations of hosting hardware (linux, windows, osx, etc)?
>>>>>
>>>>> i. Should vehicles be able to be ridden while teleporting? Should such
>>>>> teleports be able to teleport within a region as well as between two
>>>>> regions on the same or different grids?
>>>>>
>>>>> j. Are there expectations concerning the altitude a PVC can take
>>>>> place? Submarines? Aircraft? Sub-terrain Tunnels?
>>>>>
>>>>> k. Obviously we would all like our favorite client to support the PVC,
>>>>> but would humpless HG enabled PVC be acceptable if was initially supported
>>>>> by a single popular client? Obviously the implementation would have to be
>>>>> OpenSource and licensed according to OS requirements, so other
>>>>> clients/viewers would be able to add support at their desecration.
>>>>>
>>>>> What other features or capabilities would you like to see? Personally,
>>>>> I would like to see capabilities beyond what SL supports - what about you?
>>>>> Is Sl compatibility a requirement for PVC? OS is 7 years old, I believe it
>>>>> is time to look forward to what the community wants, and not continue to
>>>>> just “keep up with SL”. Hyper-grid is an excellent example of OS taking the
>>>>> lead - maybe it is time for PVC to take the lead also.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me be clear I have nothing but admiration for the OS developers. I
>>>>> am not complaining about that they have done. I am amazed at the
>>>>> outstanding work they have done and the feature set they have provided to
>>>>> us. My discussion here, is an attempt to determine if there is a desire for
>>>>> PVC, or if the OS community finds the current state of region crossings to
>>>>> be acceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me also be clear also that I understand the features mentioned
>>>>> above may not even be possible - that is not what I am interested in, I
>>>>> want to know what would the community want a PVC implementation to look
>>>>> like if their dreams could come true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank Nichols
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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