[Opensim-dev] thinking about a viewer

Thu Aug 7 12:04:18 UTC 2014

Was replying this before saw Ilan's info - thanks for infoing, am still using phone only.

BTW as realXtend is an org we could also use HiFi if it has good tech with suitable license. OTOH when the HiFi guys saw realXtend things recently they were surprised how good & mature it is :) But in open source can be possible to share in creative ways so who knows what happens in 2 or 5 years.

Earlier quick reply:

realXtend is an organization, not a technology and not only old technology :)

For example we have also an WebGL client, in commercial production use. And modern extensible entity-component model for extensibility, as the internal scene structure & network protocol.

As a new effort there's experimental Mobile Tundra work now for Android & iOS with Urho3d, no Qt nor Ogre which are in current C++ Tundra.

Typing with phone now, laters.,

> Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com> kirjoitti Aug 7, 2014 kello 1:26 PM:
> 
> "I highly recommend that we avoid trying to start a viewer project from scratch. Doing so without a dedicated group working full time for an extended period of time will result in the viewer project's failure and the growing irrelevance of the OpenSim project that will pend the availability of this modern viewer."
> 
> I do not follow your logic at all:
> 
> 1. The point of an open source project is to have side projects and features added by volunteers - and not all of those projects will succeed, but some will result in enhanced products - a sort of natural evolution by survival of the fittest.
> 
> 2. There is no requirement (or expectation on my part) that the new viewer would in any way impact current TPV's or their projects. I expect that some of the features (code) of the new viewer project might find it's way into the old TPVs, but I doubt much will since the architectures will be so different. I do expect that when SL2 comes out that SL will wither and in withering most TPVs for it will die - or possibly try to continue as OS only. 
> 
> 3. One of the issues with remaining on a path of supporting SL compatibility and using TPVs is that we are limited in developing new features - a long discussed issue (negative situation).
> 
> 4. RealExtend is also an "old" technology, what is being discussed here is bringing current (and future) tech to bear on the VW field rather than limping along with decade(s) old tech.
> 
> 4. And maybe the most important, Mister Blue, if you don't know, is the developer that brought us and maintains Bulletsim. I would say he has a proven track record for being reliable and sticking to a large project. Obviously a viewer is a very large project, but if Mister Blue initiates the project, I am certain there will be volunteers joining. I am also certain it will not impact the mainstream line of OS and the transition will be both optional (at first) and smooth.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Ilan Tochner <ilan at kitely.com>wrote:
>> I highly recommend that we avoid trying to start a viewer project from scratch. Doing so without a dedicated group working full time for an extended period of time will result in the viewer project's failure and the growing irrelevance of the OpenSim project that will pend the availability of this modern viewer.
>> 
>> I suggest we either adopt and extend the realXtend project for our needs (with or without its server architecture) or invest our collective R&D resources towards pushing High Fidelity in the direction we want it to evolve to. These liberally-licensed open source projects have already had many developer-years worth of effort invested in them and are actively developed by more people than are currently contributing to the OpenSim codebase. It would be very unwise IMO to spend years reimplementing the type of viewer they already have working. 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Ilan Tochner
>> Co-Founder and CEO
>> Kitely Ltd.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Michael Emory Cerquoni<nebadon2025 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> some important things I think are essential to a next generation viewer I would like to see
>>> streaming audio (shoutcast or equivalent)
>>> streaming video (quicktime/gstreamer or equivalent)
>>> voice chat (mumble?)
>>> MOAP (media on a prim) the ability to embed websites / youtube etc.. on geometry surface or texture overlay
>>> Lighting and Skies (Windlight Analog or equivalent or better) perhaps ability to change the moon and sun with better textures or even mesh objects.
>>> Animated Water perhaps that can be manipulated by physical objects (bluemars had this)
>>> Viewer based AO (we need to kill scripted AO's for good)
>>> Particle System (Better weather ie: rain,snow with exclusion zones so its not snowing in my living room :) also 3D particle support ie better grass and cool effects.
>>> better avatar skeleton support, quadrupeds+ etc..
>>> improved bump mapping and specular support, ability to animate materials same as textures can be animated
>>> optional viewer side physics support, better vehicles, joints, axles be nice to have suspension and just better vehicles in general
>>> better joystick, mouse, keyboard, HID support, ability to bind keys like a normal video game would allow.
>>> import / export of content in various formats ie: IARs and XML and various mesh formats not just collada, perhaps KML
>>> improved hypergrid integration HOP:// or equivalent new format
>>> Floaters and Windows not bound by viewer window, can put floaters outside of main window or on second screen (good for machinima)
>>> 
>>> these are just some of the things I would like to so, I am sure I will eventually think of more, some of these are probably more important than others but I think they all are important to take things to the next level so to speak.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Butch Arnold<butch.arnold at 3rdrockgrid.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello All,
>>>> 
>>>> I This is a great discussion and many great opinions.
>>>> 
>>>> I think there will be an endless amount of opinions and desires as OpenSim can be many different things to many people.
>>>> While most users of opensim can write/edit simple scripts, upload textures, create simple textures, build simple prim based objects - there are a great many who prefer to simply explore and be entertained by those who can do these things.
>>>> 
>>>> I myself am more interested in the "Server" side of things - I rarely venture into OpenSim worlds but to troubleshoot and experiment with new ideas, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> I think the underlying ability of OpenSim to serve data when requested and to provide all of the other services it does should be leveraged in a way that an opensim "Virgin" will find interesting, entertaining, and easy to use.
>>>> 
>>>> With that said, I think OpenSim would become more popular to the masses if we had a simple "No Frills" web viewer of sorts.
>>>> I know, I know... web viewer.. hack cough, etc.... but really think about it.
>>>> 
>>>> OpenSim as it is now is a very complicated affair if you are not already familiar with SL or OpenSim.
>>>> The viewer itself is a very daunting piece of software to use if you are a new user to these types of platforms.
>>>> 
>>>> If we could make a viable web based viewer which is designed to be a "First time user" viewer I think it would bring many more people into our platform.
>>>> Once they've experienced our worlds by simply exploring, they will then become interested in further tasks such as building, scripting, etc.
>>>> This would then drive them to "Try" a "Full" viewer, or one that is capable of all that we are now used to.
>>>> 
>>>> This viewer would not need to be as complicated as the viewers we use now and could be a very good starting point.
>>>> Not only would this provide us as a community with a split from SL, but it would provide a solid foundation on which to expand this simple viewer into a more robust viewer.
>>>> The successful completion of this smaller project would then drive more users to our worlds and may also bring more interest in the development side from some who have sat on the fence thus far.
>>>> 
>>>> The truth is, this platform seems to be for those of us who are a bit more technically inclined - "Grandma Sharon" in Washington State would never venture into our worlds as she would be terrified of the complexity of any of our available viewers, but if she could simply click a link and it work in her web browser she too would find it very entertaining.
>>>> She may never build, script, texture, etc... but she would for sure enjoy some of the events, the socializing and exploring of our worlds.
>>>> 
>>>> I think OpenSim should try to free itself from the bonds of SL for sure, but we should also try in some way to make our worlds more accessible to "Virgin" users.
>>>> 
>>>> If you want revolutionary... OpenSim already is a very capable platform, but one which has been designed around a "Purpose Built" viewer - if we wanted to start fresh we could make a completely new viewer which uses the OpenSim platform to store and serve data to a viewer which is nothing like what we are currently used to - one with say much better graphics.
>>>> 
>>>> If we do any new viewer in a modular way - it should be easy for others to produce "plugins" or "Modules" to do more interesting tasks.
>>>> 
>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>> 
>>>> Butch
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 8/4/2014 9:08 PM, Mister Blue wrote:
>>>>> I've been seriously thinking about creating a new viewer project. But with Maria's survey[1] and all the different virtual world announcements happening and the lively OpenSimulator vs Unity discussion on the opensim-user list, I'd like to open up the discussion to the OpenSimulator development community[2].
>>>>> 
>>>>> LL is making a new world and viewer (closed and proprietary as far as I know). HighFidelity is making a new world and viewer (open source with commercial 'grid services'). Unity 5 will have a multi-platform web viewer and a new multi-user backend (pricing not announced). There are various wonderful open source virtual world projects (realXtend, Virtual World Framework, ...) as well as many emerging technologies (xml3d, html5, asm.js). There are several forks of OpenSimulator (Aurora, ArribaSim, ...) that have made many enhancements to the base system. Add to that several successful virtual worlds build on OpenSimulator (inWorldz, Anvination, Kitely, ...) as well as a few packaged distributions of OpenSimulator (Diva, ...). Add to that the many SL/OpenSim third party viewers based on the LL viewer. And that's just in our sphere. There is much more happening in the gaming and education and training communities.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, what could a new viewer add to the mix? Whatever a new view does, it approaches the question of what OpenSimulator should be three years from now.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For me, there are two basic choices[3]: evolutionary change or revolutionary change.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Evolutionary change says to build on existing OpenSimulator. Make due with the existing LLLP (Linden Lab Legacy Protocol) and improve vehicles, make installation and use easier and add an easier to use and improve viewer.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Revolutionary change would be striking off on a new virtual world architecture. It could have LLLP support but only for downward compatibility and to keep that community and content. But other questions arise: How would one build a viewer/virtual world where a HiFi avatar could stand next to a SL avatar? How could content be delivered to a viewer so it is displayable but is not in the original, copyable form? How to leverage the distribution and power of 'the cloud'[4]? How could one make hypergridable grids across the many virtual worlds?
>>>>> 
>>>>> What do you  think? Evolution or revolution?
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- mb
>>>>> 
>>>>> [1] http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2014/08/survey-better-vehicles-search-most-wanted-in-opensim/
>>>>> [2] I see this expanding to other forums eventually.
>>>>> [3] With a lot of gray area in between
>>>>> [4] I'm always amazed by Google Maps -- it displays the map with traffic overlays and I can zoom in and out with almost immediate response. Why can't a virtual world viewer do that?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev

> Ilan Tochner <ilan at kitely.com> kirjoitti Aug 7, 2014 kello 2:14 PM:
> 
> Current SL viewer and TPVs are a technological dead end and they require too much effort to make drastic changes to (even LL has stated this fact). RealXtend started off trying to modernize a TPV and switched to doing a complete rewrite once they understood how very time-inefficient it was to try to do so. LL is now doing the same.
> 
> RealXtend is not a TPV, it is a project that has been written from scratch with similar goals to the ones being discussed by people in this thread. It was developed by multiple groups of professional game developers working full time over the course of several years. It would take a similar amount of time and effort to create a similar solution from scratch. It would be a mistake to assume otherwise. Meantime we'd be stuck with TPVs that lack a lot of the functionality OpenSim needs if its ever going to become relevant to a mass market. During that time other projects, both proprietary and open-source ones, will emerge and gain traction.
> 
> In other words, OpenSim's long-term relevance depends on having a viewer that can attract a mass market and having that viewer become available before well-funded projects, such as High Fidelity, gain significant traction. OpenSim won't remain the only viable open-source virtual world solution for much longer. Ignoring market forces and time-to-market is not a good strategy. OpenSim's potential and existing user base will adopt a different platform once people feel it answers their needs better. If we want OpenSim to remain relevant we can't waste time rewriting viewers from scratch.
> 
> The other alternative I suggested was joining forces with High Fidelity and helping make that platform into the future metaverse foundation. If its not about the codebase but rather about the goal of having an open-source based metaverse then supporting one of the aforementioned two alternatives has a higher chance of achieving our goals than spending time reimplementing capabilities other open-source projects already have working.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ilan Tochner
> Co-Founder and CEO
> Kitely Ltd.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "I highly recommend that we avoid trying to start a viewer project from scratch. Doing so without a dedicated group working full time for an extended period of time will result in the viewer project's failure and the growing irrelevance of the OpenSim project that will pend the availability of this modern viewer."
>> 
>> I do not follow your logic at all:
>> 
>> 1. The point of an open source project is to have side projects and features added by volunteers - and not all of those projects will succeed, but some will result in enhanced products - a sort of natural evolution by survival of the fittest.
>> 
>> 2. There is no requirement (or expectation on my part) that the new viewer would in any way impact current TPV's or their projects. I expect that some of the features (code) of the new viewer project might find it's way into the old TPVs, but I doubt much will since the architectures will be so different. I do expect that when SL2 comes out that SL will wither and in withering most TPVs for it will die - or possibly try to continue as OS only. 
>> 
>> 3. One of the issues with remaining on a path of supporting SL compatibility and using TPVs is that we are limited in developing new features - a long discussed issue (negative situation).
>> 
>> 4. RealExtend is also an "old" technology, what is being discussed here is bringing current (and future) tech to bear on the VW field rather than limping along with decade(s) old tech.
>> 
>> 4. And maybe the most important, Mister Blue, if you don't know, is the developer that brought us and maintains Bulletsim. I would say he has a proven track record for being reliable and sticking to a large project. Obviously a viewer is a very large project, but if Mister Blue initiates the project, I am certain there will be volunteers joining. I am also certain it will not impact the mainstream line of OS and the transition will be both optional (at first) and smooth.
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Ilan Tochner <ilan at kitely.com> wrote:
>>> I highly recommend that we avoid trying to start a viewer project from scratch. Doing so without a dedicated group working full time for an extended period of time will result in the viewer project's failure and the growing irrelevance of the OpenSim project that will pend the availability of this modern viewer.
>>> 
>>> I suggest we either adopt and extend the realXtend project for our needs (with or without its server architecture) or invest our collective R&D resources towards pushing High Fidelity in the direction we want it to evolve to. These liberally-licensed open source projects have already had many developer-years worth of effort invested in them and are actively developed by more people than are currently contributing to the OpenSim codebase. It would be very unwise IMO to spend years reimplementing the type of viewer they already have working. 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Ilan Tochner
>>> Co-Founder and CEO
>>> Kitely Ltd.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Michael Emory Cerquoni <nebadon2025 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> some important things I think are essential to a next generation viewer I would like to see
>>>> streaming audio (shoutcast or equivalent)
>>>> streaming video (quicktime/gstreamer or equivalent)
>>>> voice chat (mumble?)
>>>> MOAP (media on a prim) the ability to embed websites / youtube etc.. on geometry surface or texture overlay
>>>> Lighting and Skies (Windlight Analog or equivalent or better) perhaps ability to change the moon and sun with better textures or even mesh objects.
>>>> Animated Water perhaps that can be manipulated by physical objects (bluemars had this)
>>>> Viewer based AO (we need to kill scripted AO's for good)
>>>> Particle System (Better weather ie: rain,snow with exclusion zones so its not snowing in my living room :) also 3D particle support ie better grass and cool effects.
>>>> better avatar skeleton support, quadrupeds+ etc..
>>>> improved bump mapping and specular support, ability to animate materials same as textures can be animated
>>>> optional viewer side physics support, better vehicles, joints, axles be nice to have suspension and just better vehicles in general
>>>> better joystick, mouse, keyboard, HID support, ability to bind keys like a normal video game would allow.
>>>> import / export of content in various formats ie: IARs and XML and various mesh formats not just collada, perhaps KML
>>>> improved hypergrid integration HOP:// or equivalent new format
>>>> Floaters and Windows not bound by viewer window, can put floaters outside of main window or on second screen (good for machinima)
>>>> 
>>>> these are just some of the things I would like to so, I am sure I will eventually think of more, some of these are probably more important than others but I think they all are important to take things to the next level so to speak.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Butch Arnold <butch.arnold at 3rdrockgrid.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I This is a great discussion and many great opinions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think there will be an endless amount of opinions and desires as OpenSim can be many different things to many people.
>>>>> While most users of opensim can write/edit simple scripts, upload textures, create simple textures, build simple prim based objects - there are a great many who prefer to simply explore and be entertained by those who can do these things.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I myself am more interested in the "Server" side of things - I rarely venture into OpenSim worlds but to troubleshoot and experiment with new ideas, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the underlying ability of OpenSim to serve data when requested and to provide all of the other services it does should be leveraged in a way that an opensim "Virgin" will find interesting, entertaining, and easy to use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> With that said, I think OpenSim would become more popular to the masses if we had a simple "No Frills" web viewer of sorts.
>>>>> I know, I know... web viewer.. hack cough, etc.... but really think about it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> OpenSim as it is now is a very complicated affair if you are not already familiar with SL or OpenSim.
>>>>> The viewer itself is a very daunting piece of software to use if you are a new user to these types of platforms.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If we could make a viable web based viewer which is designed to be a "First time user" viewer I think it would bring many more people into our platform.
>>>>> Once they've experienced our worlds by simply exploring, they will then become interested in further tasks such as building, scripting, etc.
>>>>> This would then drive them to "Try" a "Full" viewer, or one that is capable of all that we are now used to.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This viewer would not need to be as complicated as the viewers we use now and could be a very good starting point.
>>>>> Not only would this provide us as a community with a split from SL, but it would provide a solid foundation on which to expand this simple viewer into a more robust viewer.
>>>>> The successful completion of this smaller project would then drive more users to our worlds and may also bring more interest in the development side from some who have sat on the fence thus far.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The truth is, this platform seems to be for those of us who are a bit more technically inclined - "Grandma Sharon" in Washington State would never venture into our worlds as she would be terrified of the complexity of any of our available viewers, but if she could simply click a link and it work in her web browser she too would find it very entertaining.
>>>>> She may never build, script, texture, etc... but she would for sure enjoy some of the events, the socializing and exploring of our worlds.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think OpenSim should try to free itself from the bonds of SL for sure, but we should also try in some way to make our worlds more accessible to "Virgin" users.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you want revolutionary... OpenSim already is a very capable platform, but one which has been designed around a "Purpose Built" viewer - if we wanted to start fresh we could make a completely new viewer which uses the OpenSim platform to store and serve data to a viewer which is nothing like what we are currently used to - one with say much better graphics.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If we do any new viewer in a modular way - it should be easy for others to produce "plugins" or "Modules" to do more interesting tasks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Butch
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 8/4/2014 9:08 PM, Mister Blue wrote:
>>>>>> I've been seriously thinking about creating a new viewer project. But with Maria's survey[1] and all the different virtual world announcements happening and the lively OpenSimulator vs Unity discussion on the opensim-user list, I'd like to open up the discussion to the OpenSimulator development community[2].
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> LL is making a new world and viewer (closed and proprietary as far as I know). HighFidelity is making a new world and viewer (open source with commercial 'grid services'). Unity 5 will have a multi-platform web viewer and a new multi-user           backend (pricing not announced). There are various wonderful open source virtual world projects (realXtend, Virtual World Framework, ...) as well as many emerging technologies (xml3d, html5, asm.js). There are several forks of OpenSimulator (Aurora, ArribaSim, ...) that have made many enhancements to the base system. Add to that several successful virtual worlds build on OpenSimulator (inWorldz, Anvination, Kitely, ...) as well as a few packaged distributions of OpenSimulator (Diva, ...). Add to that the many SL/OpenSim third party viewers based on the LL viewer. And that's just in our sphere. There is much more happening in the gaming and education and training communities.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, what could a new viewer add to the mix? Whatever a new view does, it approaches the question of what OpenSimulator should be three years from now.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For me, there are two basic choices[3]: evolutionary change or revolutionary change.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Evolutionary change says to build on existing OpenSimulator. Make due with the existing LLLP (Linden Lab Legacy Protocol) and improve vehicles, make installation and use easier and add an easier to use and improve viewer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Revolutionary change would be striking off on a new virtual world architecture. It could have LLLP support but only for downward compatibility and to keep that community and content. But other questions arise: How would one build a viewer/virtual world where a HiFi avatar could stand next to a SL avatar? How could content be delivered to a viewer so it is displayable but is not in the original, copyable form? How to leverage the distribution and power of 'the cloud'[4]? How could one make hypergridable grids across the many virtual worlds?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What do you  think? Evolution or revolution?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- mb
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1] http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2014/08/survey-better-vehicles-search-most-wanted-in-opensim/
>>>>>> [2] I see this expanding to other forums eventually.
>>>>>> [3] With a lot of gray area in between
>>>>>> [4] I'm always amazed by Google Maps -- it displays the map with traffic overlays and I can zoom in and out with almost immediate response. Why can't a virtual world viewer do that?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
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