[Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL working OpenSim Modules

Wed Sep 30 23:28:22 UTC 2009

Mark's comment wasn't very well organized or thought out.  It was basically
just an explosion of his frustration with OpenSim.

But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a few good points hidden in
there.

I believe that looking at most other software projects in the world, you
would find that "core" or "base" products did not come into existence in a
vacuum.  They were developed with a specific end product in mind that solved
an immediate need and/or desire.  The developers of the end product most
likely worked heavily on the core products. The effect of that end product
was the world getting to see how great the technology is.  Once people see
the possibilities your core provides, they will build other great products
from it.

I don't intend to say that the first end product has to share a repository
with the core code.  Just that there needs to be an end product being work
on by core developers.

Do you need to include _every_ module in your releases?  No.  But you have
to do whatever it takes to make using the most common modules as easy as
possible.  If half or even a 5th of your potential users want module X, then
it's fairly important that it's easy to install without knowing c#.

You can do all of this the other way around -- but you're only hurting your
own popularity.

Be excellent to each other and party on dudes!
- Joshua
_______________________________________________________
Joshua Garvin

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com> wrote:

> Holdit!
>
> OpenSim is NOT A PRODUCT. OpenSim is a BASE other people can make a
> product out of. So, OpenSim aims to include as little as possible,
> distros are the ones who will put it together and relicense it as
> they see fit.
>
> OpenSim Core is not a maker of distros. We are not a product
> company. We are a loose association of people who share an interest.
> We don't _want_ to make a "product", because we can't support a
> product. We make "bits and pieces" and let those with support staff
> handle productizing it.
>
> Melanie
>
> Mark Malewski wrote:
> > Diva,
> >
> > *>> It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or
> as
> >>> OpenSim modules).
> >>*
> > *>This would be terrible. *
> >
> > Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSim distro be
> terrible?
> >  Having something that actually "works" is terrible?  In my opinion, just
> > the opposite is true.
> >
> > You can spend your whole life developing things (that no one actually
> uses,
> > and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and that no one will
> > ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and that is
> EASY
> > to use, and that people will use.
> >
> > You seem to prefer the latter.
> >
> >
> > *> I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this
> >>concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from
> >>the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an
> >>application, it's a platform with which to build applications.
> > *
> > I think you need to sit down and understand the concept of "working
> > product".  You also need to stop confusing "extensible system" with "not
> > working" product.
> >
> > PHP, and Apache are what I would consider "extensible systems".  PHP is
> > easily downloaded, and it works (out of the box).  Yet it comes with many
> > different modules (as part of the default distro) and those modules have
> all
> > been thoroughly tested, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommenting
> out
> > the module name in the default.ini file.
> >
> > to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with
> new
> > capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system
> > infrastructure.
> >
> > OpenSim doesn't seem to be "extensible".  OpenSim seems to be "broken".
> >  There is a big difference.  Maybe your definition of "extensible" means
> > that it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile
> > (or even work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get
> a
> > module to even work.  That isn't my idea of "extensible".
> >
> > I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and
> > architecture) has been changing quite a bit.  It's hard to even tell if
> > ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk
> (or
> > latest build) at this point.
> >
> > The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to
> > compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules
> > that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be
> updated,
> > or may not even work with the current OpenSim as "core" evolves.  Often
> > times many of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to
> > even build from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have
> > VERY simple "turn-key" distributions available for download. (Stable
> > releases)
> >
> > Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past.
> >
> > I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully
> configured
> > VMWare image  of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured,
> that
> > people could easily download, and be up and running in a few minutes
> > (without having to hunt for various modules, or applications), or sifting
> > through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get started
> or
> > even get up and running, but to be honest most people just want something
> > VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI interface
> > (like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users,
> > etc.
> >
> > Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer, or a programmer,
> just
> > to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, or just to get
> > OpenSim running on a machine.
> >
> > If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile or
> debug
> > code.  If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to debug any
> code.
> >  Most modules are included in the default distro, and modules can easily
> be
> > turned on and off, by simply "enabling" them in the default ini
> > (configuration) file.
> >
> > In my opinion, you may be confusing "extensible system" as an excuse as
> to
> > why nothing should work properly.
> >
> > In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for OpenSim should
> be
> > included in the default distro (in the modules directory), and these
> modules
> > should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enabled by simply
> > uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration file.
> >
> > Include EVERY single working module with the default OpenSim distro, so
> > users have a list of default working modules that are regularly updated
> so
> > that they actually work (and are not broken), so that when a stable
> release
> > comes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever modules they wish
> to
> > use (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .ini configuration
> > file) and those modules are in the modules directory, and can easily be
> > enabled by just uncommenting out a single line in the default ini
> > configuration file.
> >
> > The problem is, it seems like a herd of cats are headed in all opposite
> > directions, and people really just want something that actually works.
> >  Diva, is that honestly too much to ask?
> >
> > There are Applications and there are Operating Systems.  What do you call
> > OpenSim?  Is it an Application or an Operating System?  (or is it
> neither?)
> >
> > When I say "works", I'm talking about someone can download OpenSim, and
> be
> > up and running (designing things from within the OpenSim Application
> > platform such as creating 3D content, in-world).  Not sitting down and
> > downloading source code, or attempting to figure out how to learn C# or
> C++
> > or how to write a module, just to get simple things running.
> >
> > The thing that made RealXtend so popular was that it was easy to use, and
> > they had distros that were already setup and ready to use (even with a
> nice
> > "beneath the sea" demo world as part of the distro).
> >
> > Keep in mind that most of the people interested in OpenSim as a 3D
> > development platform are laypeople, and are graphics designers (and
> Second
> > Life users) that are NOT Computer Science majors, and are not engineers,
> and
> > really don't know ANY programming languages (some may know a bit of Java,
> or
> > HTML, or LSL), but most don't even know C++ or C# nor would they have any
> > idea how to even compile or build from source.  They just want to use
> > OpenSim to design 3D content, and create their own virtual world.
> >
> > Do you expect a web developer to know C? or C++? or C#?
> >
> > Try thinking of OpenSim as a "3D Web Server" for users (similar to
> Apache).
> >  Yes, Apache is extensible, and many modules can be written for Apache,
> but
> > most of the common modules are already tested and included with the
> Apache
> > distro.  Modules are tested, and included with all the latest releases,
> and
> > users can easily comment (or uncomment) out a single line in the default
> > configuration file, and have the included modules working.
> >
> > So I believe the key to making OpenSim widely adopted as a "usable"
> platform
> > for 3D developers, would be to make OpenSim easy to use (so that ANYONE
> can
> > get up and running in less than 10 minutes).  I believe every single
> tested
> > module should be included with the default distro's.  So that users can
> > easily enable/disable whatever modules they want, and users know that the
> > modules included with each distro have been tested, and are working
> modules.
> >
> > At this point in time, does ANYONE actually know what works, and what
> > doesn't work?  Do we actually have a working distro, with working modules
> > (that have been tested to work) with an actual OpenSim release?
> >
> > Since 0.7 release is supposed to be coming out soon (in a week?) is there
> > any way that we can stop development, and begin testing all the OpenSim
> > modules, and add all the OpenSim modules (that have been tested and are
> > working) to an OpenSim 0.7 release candidate?
> >
> > RealXtend does a very good job of doing this (with their old distros),
> but
> > now that ModRex is integrated with OpenSim core, we're back to the
> drawing
> > board again.
> >
> > If someone wants to enable ModRex, they should just be able to uncomment
> out
> > a line in the default .ini file, and all the features of ModRex should
> work.
> >  If someone wants to enable currency, they should just be able to just
> > uncomment out a line in the default .ini file, and now the currency
> module
> > should be enabled.
> >
> > Why not make things SIMPLE and EASY to use?
> >
> > If someone wants to write a module (and wants it included with the
> OpenSim
> > distro) then it needs to be tested, and once it has been tested (and
> > confirmed to work) then it can be included with the OpenSim distro.  This
> > way at least we know what modules work (and are tested).
> >
> > OpenSim has evolved so quickly, that I'm not quite sure what modules even
> > exist (or even work) at this point, and I have a few old distro's
> running,
> > but I was too scared to even upgrade because everyone said that "OpenSim
> is
> > currently broken" (due to all the latest changes) and people really just
> > really want a WORKING distro (with working modules).
> >
> > I'm still running OpenSim 0.62 and ReX Server 0.4 on my local machines
> > simply because it has been months where things have been completely
> broken
> > (as OpenSim trunk would not even compile) and OpenSim has been making
> some
> > backend changes and I'm still not even sure that ModRex/RealXtend even
> works
> > since it has migrated over to OpenSim?
> >
> > I think your definition of "extensibility" and "extensible systems
> > architecture" is different from mine.  I believe in having something that
> > ACTUALLY WORKS (out of the box), and extensibility means that new
> > capabilities could EASILY be added without having to make changes to the
> > system infrastructure.
> >
> > Your definition of "extensibility" seems to mean, nothing works,
> everything
> > is broken, and you need to hire a software engineer just to get a few
> basic
> > modules up and running.
> >
> > In my opinion, "extensibility" means that all the various modules would
> come
> > by default with the default OpenSim distro, and they could easily be
> turned
> > on (enabled) or turned off (disabled) by simply uncommenting a line in
> the
> > default.ini file.  Similar to PHP distro, or Apache server, or various
> other
> > platforms.
> >
> > Either OpenSim is an Application or it's an Operating System.  Since it
> > doesn't run on bare metal, I certainly would NOT call it an Operating
> > System, therefore I would consider it a software Application.  I would
> > consider OpenSim a 3D development platform.
> >
> > In my opinion, I would consider OpenSim a Server platform (software
> > application) and you need both the OpenSim Server (platform) and a
> > compatible Viewer to make OpenSim work.
> >
> > The problem is that OpenSim has evolved so much (and so quickly) that
> much
> > of the Wiki documentation is outdated, no one is quite sure what even
> works
> > at this point, and what doesn't work at this point. There is no list of
> > recently "tested" modules (that are known to work with the current
> > build/latest distro).
> >
> > Most "noobs" just really want a distro that they can easily download
> (maybe
> > in a VMWare format) so they can just fire up a pre-configured image, and
> be
> > up and running in minutes (instead of days or weeks).
> >
> > I'm willing to help test, and I'm willing to help with documentation, and
> > I'm willing to even create "distros" that are easy to use (and that are
> > tested and working) but it seems like nobody is working together.
> >
> > What if we just STOPPED developing, for just ONE week, and worked
> together
> > on creating an actual distro?  Just a working (and well tested) distro,
> that
> > is thoroughly tested, that is STABLE, and that has all the OpenSim
> modules
> > working with it?
> >
> > Then release it as a OpenSim 0.7 release.
> >
> > That's all I ask.  Then after OpenSim 0.7 release candidate comes out
> (and
> > it well tested, and all the modules from the OpenSim GForge are tested to
> > work and be compatible with the 0.7 release, and then we wrap everything
> up,
> > and release it as a working distro!
> >
> > Just halt development for 1 week, and just focus on bug fixes, and
> getting
> > the modules to all work so we can just have a nice OpenSim 0.7 release
> > candidate, with lots of working modules (that are all tested) and are
> > included in the default distro.
> >
> > People can still choose what modules they wish to enable, but at least
> > include all the known working modules with the default distro (or create
> a
> > "vanilla" distro, and a "full distro" with the OpenSim 0.7 Release).
>  That
> > way one has the working modules, and the other doesn't have the working
> > modules.
> >
> > But this way at least we can have an actual TESTED release candidate,
> that
> > has all the working OpenSim modules (with updated documentation).
> >
> > I'm willing to help with documentation, and testing, but I just want to
> see
> > an actual release candidate (with working modules) come out.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:03 PM, <diva at metaverseink.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Mark Malewski wrote:
> >> > It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or
> as
> >> > OpenSim modules).
> >>
> >> This would be terrible. We're going in the opposite direction, which is
> >> to have a minimal core and let people do their own extensions as they
> >> wish, hopefully replacing the heck out of the reference implementations.
> >>
> >> I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this
> >> concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from
> >> the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an
> >> application, it's a platform with which to build applications.
> >>
> >> Some extenders of OpenSim may want to get together and try to make their
> >> extensions work with each other. That's great and desirable. But let's
> >> not prevent innovative ideas from emerging by throwing a massive
> >> feature-full application out there as "OpenSim".
> >>
> >> Diva / Crista
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-dev mailing list
> >> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> > Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
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