[Opensim-dev] The notion of "core"

Tue Oct 20 11:51:15 UTC 2009

For my part I apologise for the digression -- I clearly did not intend
for it to be unproductive.

Maybe one day I'll learn to keep my mouth shut! :)

Bad mouth!

Cheers,

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Teravus Ovares <teravus at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a FYI, after talking with Ryan further, I did mis-interpret his
> statement as sarcastic when he didn't mean it that way.   So with
> that, I'm sorry for taking up your time reading this.    This will
> hopefully be the last e-mail on this thread.
>
> Regards
>
> Teravus
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:04 AM, Teravus Ovares <teravus at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My message was in response to your sarcastic comment,
>> "Thanks for all the information -- it makes one feel in the loop an
>> having a voice."
>>
>> My point was that you're calling us on keeping people out of the loop
>> when you don't also keep people in the loop.  I've been a part of the
>> dev mailing list for some time now.  The dev list hasn't been asked to
>> vote on the people who have commit on the realXtend server.
>>
>> A fork in git is an action that allows you to keep your own copy that
>> you distribute.  Where you get your copy from is really irrelevant in
>> a distributed source control management system.  The point is..   you
>> manage what goes in to your copy and what doesn't.   This establishes
>> that you have control over that 'fork'.     Once again, you can't
>> claim that you don't have control over Taiga.   You can choose to
>> merge or not.   You can even knit pick specific commits.
>>
>> "Also, since we have no reX-specific modification, it's more like an
>> svn:external"
>> Does that mean that you're no longer using Ogre mesh in the realXtend Server?
>>
>>>No, we use a web of trust system, ie. each current contributor gets to
>>> decide on their own who gets commit access to SVN -- if we used git
>>> even that distinction would become meaningless.
>>
>> We accept patches the same way.   The patches are reviewed by a core
>> member, and committed as is appropriate.
>> For example: here's a recent patch by Snowcrash that was committed by dahlia:
>> http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=182693628ca1b81c90f3f0296418437eda406bb5
>>
>>
>>> I think this is a case of not understanding what I'm talking about.
>>> It's also not the first time you've done that to attack me publicly
>>> even though you have my IM.
>>
>> I'm not attacking you publicly.  I'm simply saying that I don't think
>> it's fair for you to call OpenSimulator core on 'keeping people out of
>> the loop' when you're not 100% 'community inclusive'.   Come back and
>> make that claim when you are.
>>
>>
>>> You seem to have profoundly misunderstood my words yet again. I'm not
>>> sure where you get "negative" from...
>> It's possible.    However, when I receive advice like
>>
>>>In that case, unless core is comprised of lawyers, or confidential
>>>legal advice is being directly quoted, it might be healthier to
>>>discuss in public -- at least so it's readable by those who have a
>>>stake in the community.
>>
>>>Every community/OSS book that mentions private lists for limited use,
>>>in the next breath cautions against over-use.
>>
>> in an e-mail thread where you exclaim
>>
>> "
>> Fourthly, the email is not just about one mailing list, it's about the
>> entire concept of a monolithic core in open source, especially given
>> we're on a DVCS like git. If core is not interested in examining
>> itself as it grows, then so be it.
>> "
>>
>> Is it any wonder that I interpret the next statement, "Thanks for all
>> the information -- it makes one feel in the loop an
>> having a voice.", sarcastically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Teravus
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Ryan McDougall <sempuki1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Teravus Ovares <teravus at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You seem to have some negative feelings about us.   You have your own
>>>
>>> You seem to have profoundly misunderstood my words yet again. I'm not
>>> sure where you get "negative" from...
>>>
>>>> fork though that you manage..   called Taiga.   Are you saying that
>>>
>>> Taiga is comprised of OpenSim (although we now track JHurliman's
>>> branch of ScienceSim), cable beach, and ModreX.
>>>
>>> Given JHurliman's branch of opensim is a temporary git branch, calling
>>> it a fork is quite a stretch. In fact it's quite my point that "fork"
>>> is meaningless with DVCS.
>>>
>>> Also, since we have no reX-specific modification, it's more like an
>>> svn:external.
>>>
>>>> you involve the community for all decisions about Taiga including who
>>>> gets commit rights?    I seriously doubt it.
>>>
>>> No, we use a web of trust system, ie. each current contributor gets to
>>> decide on their own who gets commit access to SVN -- if we used git
>>> even that distinction would become meaningless.
>>>
>>> Ie, if you want commit access -- let me know, I'll set you up asap.
>>>
>>>> This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
>>>
>>> I think this is a case of not understanding what I'm talking about.
>>> It's also not the first time you've done that to attack me publicly
>>> even though you have my IM.
>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Teravus
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Ryan McDougall <sempuki1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Dr Scofield <DrScofield at xyzzyxyzzy.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ryan McDougall wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Frisby, Adam <adam at deepthink.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I disagree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Commit Rights - those discussions cannot occur in public (although the discussion archives are open to committers after being invited), the reason for this is no-one can be frank & honest without hurting people's feelings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Firstly, I did waive discussion for commit access. I also waive money
>>>>>>> and legal matters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Secondly, I disagree with the logic of the link, as it's premised
>>>>>>> entirely on being honest might hurt someone's feelings. Honesty is not
>>>>>>> a function of secrecy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i think honesty can be a facilitated by a discussion remaining confidential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the case of "there was a long drawn out
>>>>>>> discussion about me in which I was not able to represent my myself"
>>>>>>> causing hurt feelings is not considered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i can see that point, but i can also see the points made by adam respectively
>>>>>> the points made in the F/OSS guidebook --- in balance (my personal one) i'd
>>>>>> rather have core committers discuss whether i should have voting rights in private.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thirdly, I don't think snowcrash thing is about giving him commit
>>>>>>> access. I don't think things are as neatly compartmentalized as is
>>>>>>> told (though I could be wrong, it's hard to guess from a secret
>>>>>>> mailing list).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no, you are right on that one. it's a discussion about our understanding of
>>>>>> licensing issues and whether there is indeed an issue here or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, unless core is comprised of lawyers, or confidential
>>>>> legal advice is being directly quoted, it might be healthier to
>>>>> discuss in public -- at least so it's readable by those who have a
>>>>> stake in the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Every community/OSS book that mentions private lists for limited use,
>>>>> in the next breath cautions against over-use.
>>>>>
>>>>>> re compartmentalized: they are, at least we try very hard to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        DrS
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> dr dirk husemann ---- virtual worlds research ---- ibm zurich research lab
>>>>>> SL: dr scofield ---- drscofield at xyzzyxyzzy.net ---- http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/
>>>>>> RL: hud at zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for all the information -- it makes one feel in the loop an
>>>>> having a voice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>