[Opensim-dev] Banning from #OpenSim-Dev

[Nebadon Izumi]

Do you understand the meaning of off topic?? you were kicked for being off
topic and now your brought your off topic behavior to this channel as well??
  your just trying to cause drama now.. its not appreciated.. please take
your drama elsewhere, thanks.
On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Snowcrash Short
<snowcrash.short at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi
>
> Today, I had the "Pleasure" of being kicked from #OpenSim-dev,
> unfortunately I don't really understand why, and I would like to have an
> explanation, so I can avoid that behaviour in the future:
>
> Here is a transcript of the relevant logs:
> (16:05:50) diva: otherwise, if it's a product thing, leave it out of
> core and let different product designers do differernt things
> (16:05:52) Melanie_t: not per instance
> (16:06:08) diva: -1
> (16:06:10) diva: sorry
> (16:06:15) Melanie_t: diva: what happened to peaceful coexistence?
> (16:06:16) Fly-Man-: Kirtai: 1 region can be a Mainland region
> (16:06:25) Fly-Man-: and another can be a Private Estate
> (16:06:31) Fly-Man-: that's why it's region based
> (16:06:32) diva: Melanie: the word "product" raises all sorts of red
> flags
> (16:06:40) Melanie_t: seemingly only with you
> (16:06:49) diva: where did this come from?
> (16:06:56) diva: I had never heard of this before
> (16:07:00) Melanie_t: since i believe, for all others here, it is a
> product, or something to be prodictized
> (16:07:01) diva: and I bet nobody knows either
> (16:07:07) diva: so let me raise this in -dev
> (16:07:27) Kirtai: all the configurations I see in Region.ini are
> technical, except this one. Feels like the wrong place
> (16:07:30) Melanie_t: we have regularly used the field names the LLUDP
> packets use
> (16:07:46) Melanie_t: more than 90% of out naming are derived from LLUDP
> (16:08:03) Melanie_t: i'm not attached to the name as such
> (16:08:07) Snowcrash: Melanie_t ... that sentiment about productized, is
> one of the very reasons I have against ever becoming part of core, or
> having my engine in core
> (16:08:17) Melanie_t: but i do wonder why you feel so strongly
> (16:08:19) diva: we have been focusing on technical aspects, and do have
> LL. Now they are focusing on Product aspects. Good for them
> (16:08:42) diva: I have no interest in Linden Lab's products
> (16:08:47) Melanie_t: Snowcrash: if you're allergic to making money,
> fine
> (16:08:50) diva: and I think OpenSim should stay away from them too
> (16:09:02) Melanie_t: diva: this is not about Linden lab's products
> (16:09:06) Kirtai: would it not be better to have that information in a
> seperate file associated with regions?
> (16:09:09) diva: because lots of people have completely difference ideas
> about products on top of OpenSim that have nothing to do with LL's
> product
> (16:09:19) Melanie_t: it's about a string that anyone making _a_ product
> can use to iidentify it
> (16:09:30) diva: no
> (16:09:40) Melanie_t: it's not limited to expressing linden lab's
> product choices
> (16:09:41) diva: It's a specific products related to region management
> (16:09:53) diva: it's very specific
> (16:10:01) Melanie_t: how so?
> (16:10:06) diva: it's in the region
> (16:10:12) Melanie_t: you can set it to "xyzzy"
> (16:10:21) Melanie_t: or "Faculty Zone"
> (16:10:25) diva: lots of producs that ppl may want to do have nothing to
> do with that
> (16:10:28) Melanie_t: it's not lindenish
> (16:10:33) diva: it is
> (16:10:43) Melanie_t: how is attaching a string to a region lindenish?
> (16:10:52) diva: that string is called ProductName
> (16:10:55) Melanie_t: so?
> (16:10:58) diva: it's Linden's business model
> (16:11:02) Melanie_t: it's not called LindenProductName
> (16:11:04) diva: they sell real estate
> (16:11:08) Melanie_t: i do, too
> (16:11:11) Melanie_t: am i linden?
> (16:11:13) diva: I don't
> (16:11:18) diva: lots of ppl don't either
> (16:11:23) Melanie_t: so why do you mean to invalidate my use case?
> (16:11:29) Melanie_t: or adam's
> (16:11:30) diva: you can do it as an extensionm
> (16:11:37) Melanie_t: as he also sells region hosting
> (16:12:13) diva: good for him and you. But let's not tie OpenSim to
> Linden Lab's business model
> (16:12:18) Snowcrash: the question is, "should the core, support this
> use case, or should it go to an out-of-core module"
> (16:12:31) Melanie_t: just the same i could say that i don't recognize a
> division between student and faculty assets because my use case doesn't
> include it
> (16:12:35) Snowcrash: like money
> (16:12:44) Hiro_Protagonist: the question, Snowcrash is why you are even
> participating in this conversation
> (16:12:45) Melanie_t: Snowcrash: it can't go to module
> (16:12:51) Melanie_t: that file is not accessible to modules
> (16:12:52) Fly-Man-: Snowcrash: That's the issue
> (16:12:58) osmantis: Bug #4268: nini.ini.iniexception
> ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4268 ): has been
> SUBMITTED.
> (16:12:58) Snowcrash: Hiro .. why can't I?
> (16:13:05) Hiro_Protagonist: as you have no interest in contributing to
> this project, and no interest in monetizing it
> (16:13:15) Fly-Man-: The RegionHandshake packet sends this info
> (16:13:17) Snowcrash: if you don't want other to participate, move it to
> the dev channel
> (16:13:19) Melanie_t: true, Snowcrash, you have declared you want no
> part of core
> (16:13:30) Fly-Man-: part of the packet is the sending of information
> (16:13:37) Hiro_Protagonist: this is the dev vhannel snowcrash
> (16:13:40) Melanie_t: and, incidentally, we can't change it's name int
> he regionHandshake, either
> (16:13:48) diva: If you want to develop a product that mimics LL's
> product, you can subclass RegionInfo
> (16:13:50) Snowcrash: last I heard, there was a core-dev channel
> (16:13:51) Fly-Man-: that Search uses to make a difference between
> Mainland / OpenSpace and Private Estates
> (16:14:14) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash, mind your manners and put a cork
> in it
> (16:14:20) Melanie_t: we've been here before. i'm astonished that you of
> all people would opt to cripple something
> (16:14:22) Kirtai: Melanie_t: would a seperate file that maps regions to
> categories (not just products) work? Or change the entry from products
> to SearchKeys?
> (16:14:31) Snowcrash: and .. Hiro, I have supplied patches to mantis
> (16:14:37) Melanie_t: Kirtai: the packet used is built in core
> (16:14:42) Melanie_t: the config file is read by core
> (16:14:48) diva: Melanie_t the word product makes me go to Mars and back
> (16:14:49) Melanie_t: all the plu,bing is core
> (16:14:59) Melanie_t: diva: why hang it all up on a word?
> (16:15:01) Kirtai: then what about my second suggestion?
> (16:15:06) diva: if we are supporting a "product" in core I want shares
> of it
> (16:15:07) Melanie_t: it's called that int he LL packet, we can't change
> that
> (16:15:08) Kirtai: Call it SearchKeys
> (16:15:18) Snowcrash: Hiro .. you need to ask yourself, do you want me
> to leave this channel or not
> (16:15:29) diva: if there is a technical justification for it, let's
> find it and call it the right word
> (16:15:43) osmantis: Bug #4268: nini.ini.iniexception
> ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4268 ): A NOTE has been
> added to this issue.
> (16:15:45) Kirtai: so it forms an extensible region search function
> instead of a restricted one
> (16:15:45) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash, you need to ask yourself whether
> I have sufficient patience this morning to avoid tossing you out of it
> (16:15:51) Melanie_t: it's, at the very least, an extra differentiation
> criterion in search
> (16:15:59) diva: in LL's search
> (16:16:00) Fly-Man-: diva: http://search.pastebin.com/d69c6d45
> (16:16:02) Melanie_t: and since search is so coarse to start with, that
> is important
> (16:16:14) Snowcrash: if you think you gain something for the project by
> doing so, by all means
> (16:16:15) diva: that's Linden Lab;'s search
> (16:16:16) Melanie_t: diva: LL is still all the client we have
> (16:16:16) Fly-Man-: Above part, RegionHandle from SL
> (16:16:27) Fly-Man-: Below part, OpenSim response
> (16:16:28) Hiro_Protagonist: Diva, Melanie_T - time out for a sec
> (16:16:39) Hiro_Protagonist: lets not go to blows if you please
> (16:17:03) Hiro_Protagonist: 1st question: is it possible to use this
> packet at all without using lindenisms
> (16:17:12) Fly-Man-: Hiro_Protagonist: Yes
> (16:17:15) Melanie_t: hell no
> (16:17:22) Fly-Man-: The packet already exists
> (16:17:23) Melanie_t: Regionhandshake is a linden packet
> (16:17:28) Hiro_Protagonist: clearly it's in our interest to implement
> all the packets
> (16:17:33) Melanie_t: so it actually US a lindenism
> (16:17:37) Melanie_t: IS*
> (16:17:40) diva: I have no problem with the packets having that info
> (16:17:45) Hiro_Protagonist: obviously we dont want to be tied to linden
> specific uses of this particular packet
> (16:17:49) Fly-Man-: diva: Where is your problem then ?
> (16:18:01) Melanie_t: her problem is the work "Prodict"
> (16:18:11) Melanie_t: althogh 95% of core are commercially motivated
> (16:18:24) Hiro_Protagonist: Melanie_T: that's not really a defense
> (16:18:29) Melanie_t: by either being employed by a company that is
> commercially motivated
> (16:18:36) Melanie_t: or being in business related to opensim
> (16:18:40) diva: I have a problem with us using that info in core as
> "product" and for product purposes, which happens to be a Linden Lab
> product
> (16:18:43) Hiro_Protagonist: opensim is not for 95% of the users its for
> all 100%
> (16:18:56) diva: so if there'e a technical reason for that string in
> RegionInfo I would like to know what it is and I will support it
> (16:19:01) Melanie_t: but here 5% want to limit the abilities of the 95%
> (16:19:08) Fly-Man-: diva: then ask Linden Labs to change it to
> InfoSpace
> (16:19:09) Kirtai: may I make a suggestion?
> (16:19:10) Fly-Man-: or whatever
> (16:19:26) diva: Technical reason
> (16:19:29) Hiro_Protagonist: I really have difficulty believing that Mel
> (16:19:37) Fly-Man-: diva: Showing the right info in Search
> (16:19:44) Fly-Man-: usage of information for Caps message
> (16:19:47) Hiro_Protagonist: that's a Melanie_T opinion, not what Diva
> has expressed
> (16:19:50) Melanie_t: Hiro_Protagonist: believing what?
> (16:19:55) Melanie_t: the commercial motivation?
> (16:19:57) Fly-Man-: and telling the user where he is at
> (16:20:03) Fly-Man-: that's the technical reasons
> (16:20:03) Hiro_Protagonist: that 5% wants to limit the other 95%
> (16:20:34) Hiro_Protagonist: we dont have the packet implemented now,
> and I certainly am not missing the use of it in my enterprise
> (16:20:44) Fly-Man-: Hiro_Protagonist: The packet is already implemented
> (16:20:47) Fly-Man-: LONG time ago
> (16:20:47) Melanie_t: well, if that info should not be sent because the
> 5% here object to something that can be used for productization being
> included,, then it is so
> (16:20:52) Fly-Man-: but the value isn't send
> (16:21:03) Hiro_Protagonist: then it isnt fully implemented
> (16:21:06) Fly-Man-: the only change Melanie_t made
> (16:21:13) Fly-Man-: is to add the value to the Region example
> (16:21:20) Fly-Man-: so it can be used for ppl that want to use it
> (16:21:30) Fly-Man-: You're not asked when creating a new region
> (16:21:36) Fly-Man-: just when you set it up yourself
> (16:21:48) Fly-Man-: and at this moment, that value is not send in the
> RegionHandShake
> (16:21:55) Fly-Man-: as that's not implemented
> (16:21:57) diva: Melanie_t: I respect your busniess plans, but there's a
> limit. If you have a good technical reason for that extra field, please
> explain it. Otherwise it looks like we are here to work for free
> developing *your* product
> (16:22:00) Hiro_Protagonist: from an architectural perspective, I have
> to agree with Diva, I dont like this being in core
> (16:22:08) Kirtai: It sounds like what you want is a general region
> tagging and search facility, but definining it as Product is
> unnecessarily specific and limiting.
> (16:22:24) Melanie_t: diva: we are all sharing development foe each of
> our products
> (16:22:31) Hiro_Protagonist: that said, I am not antagonistic from
> product-centric things being a part of the broader work
> (16:22:52) Melanie_t: and regardless of a name
> (16:22:59) Melanie_t: that is precisely what we all do
> (16:23:09) Melanie_t: assist others in developing their product
> (16:23:22) diva: My product has nothing to do with Linden Lab's product.
> I don't ever plan on selling "OpenSpaces" or whatever those things are
> called.
> (16:23:23) Melanie_t: i just don't have an idealistic veneer over it.
> (16:23:39) Melanie_t: diva: you are NOT limited to using the string that
> way
> (16:23:41) Snowcrash: I would like to point out, that I am not here for
> the money
> (16:23:47) diva: call it something else, give me a technical reason
> (16:23:59) diva: a technical concept
> (16:23:59) Fly-Man-: Technical reason
> (16:24:08) Fly-Man-: If you implement it:
> (16:24:12) Hiro_Protagonist: I'm not at all sure why you are here at all
> Snowcrash
> (16:24:20) Fly-Man-: 'Search can work better as it knows the value"
> (16:24:29) Fly-Man-: "Search can make sure it finds the right info for
> you"
> (16:24:38) diva: Flye-Man- that;s a search that mimics Linden Lab's
> product
> (16:24:41) Fly-Man-: "Region owner knows what kind of region he/she has"
> (16:24:46) Fly-Man-: diva: Yupz
> (16:24:49) Snowcrash: maybe because I like the core idea LL has brought
> to metaverses
> (16:24:50) Hiro_Protagonist: RegionClassification works for me, or even
> OptionalRegionClassificationTag
> (16:24:52) Fly-Man-: and the problem with it is:
> (16:24:56) diva: there is no "kind of region" in my mind in core
> (16:25:01) You have been kicked by Hiro_Protagonist: (Hiro_Protagonist)
>
> and then in #opensim
>
> (16:27:20) Snowcrash: so, Hiro_Protagonist, are you going to kick me
> from here as well, maybe even ban my regions from OSGrid, perhaps
> disable my accounts there as well
> (16:27:48) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash: if your actions warrant such,
> yes I will
> (16:28:06) Snowcrash: did I behave in an obnoxious manner?
> (16:28:29) Snowcrash: or is the fact that I don't release under a normal
> BSD sufficient reason
> (16:29:41) Snowcrash: how did my actions warrant being kicked from -dev?
> (16:29:47) Snowcrash: what did I do that was so wrong?
> (16:30:08) Snowcrash: let me know, so I can avoid that behaviour again
> (16:31:13) Hippo-Finesmith: ahhh i c hiro strikes again
> (16:31:23) Hiro_Protagonist: it's quite simple really - you have
> expressed a complete lack of willingness to participate in this
> community on it's terms
> (16:31:28) Hiro_Protagonist: this is a bsd project
> (16:31:34) Snowcrash: yes .. and for some reason I don't understand,
> that's the worst
> (16:31:37) Hiro_Protagonist: you get tons of support for your work
> (16:31:50) Hiro_Protagonist: and dont contribute that work in its
> fullness back to the entire community
> (16:31:58) Hiro_Protagonist: you are a parasite
> (16:32:01) Snowcrash: Hiro, so the patches I have put into mantis
> accounts for nothing?
> (16:32:17) Snowcrash: and in order to be in -dev you must release all
> code under BSD?
> (16:32:19) Hippo-Finesmith: using ure rerasones there hiro then 90% of
> ppl in this channel are
> (16:32:19) Hiro_Protagonist: I dont know what patches you have put into
> mantis
> (16:32:38) Snowcrash: take a look, or talk to Melanie_t
> (16:32:55) Hiro_Protagonist: no, snowcrash - you dont have to release
> your code bsd to be in -dev
> (16:33:16) Snowcrash: (16:31:28) Hiro_Protagonist: this is a bsd project
> (16:33:25) Hiro_Protagonist: but if I tell you to but out of a
> conversation you have no business in on -dev, you better take heed
> (16:33:36) Snowcrash: (16:31:58) Hiro_Protagonist: you are a parasite
> (16:33:42) Hiro_Protagonist: you are
> (16:33:43) Snowcrash: what am I parasitiing?
> (16:33:48) osmantis: Bug #4267: LLUPDserver keep sending warnings about
> startpingchecks ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4267 ):
> has been set CHILD OF issue 0004257.
> (16:33:49) osmantis: Bug #4257: [LLUDPCLIENT] Received a StartPingCheck
> packet from an unrecognized source, after hg jump
> ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4257 ): has been set
> PARENT OF issue 0004267.
> (16:34:06) Hiro_Protagonist: the time and attention of people who work
> for the interests of the entire community without reservation
> (16:34:20) Snowcrash: I have made non only code contributions, but also
> participated in helping others in design and implementation
> (16:34:24) Snowcrash: is that parasiting?
> (16:34:46) Snowcrash: so I should release under full BSD, or not be part
> of -dev
> (16:34:58) Snowcrash: what about Adam and Mel or JHurliman?
> (16:35:17) Snowcrash: or MW for that matter
> (16:35:30) osmantis: Bug #4267: LLUPDserver keep sending warnings about
> startpingchecks ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4267 ): A
> NOTE has been added to this issue.
> (16:35:56) Snowcrash: what happened with, "begin gratefull for what
> contributions people make" ?
> (16:36:30) Snowcrash: so I ask again, how am I a parasite, name
> specifics
> (16:37:54) Snowcrash: I have a feeling that this is really about,
> standards being good, double standards are twice as good
> (16:38:37) Hippo-Finesmith: i have a feeling its also about Hiro wanting
> to feel almighty powerfull :)
>
> I believe I - at the very least - deserve an explantion why, so I can
> avoid that information in the future.
>
>
>
>
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> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
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>



-- 
Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
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