[Opensim-dev] Banning from #OpenSim-Dev

[Snowcrash Short]

Hi

Today, I had the "Pleasure" of being kicked from #OpenSim-dev,
unfortunately I don't really understand why, and I would like to have an
explanation, so I can avoid that behaviour in the future:

Here is a transcript of the relevant logs:
(16:05:50) diva: otherwise, if it's a product thing, leave it out of
core and let different product designers do differernt things
(16:05:52) Melanie_t: not per instance
(16:06:08) diva: -1
(16:06:10) diva: sorry
(16:06:15) Melanie_t: diva: what happened to peaceful coexistence?
(16:06:16) Fly-Man-: Kirtai: 1 region can be a Mainland region
(16:06:25) Fly-Man-: and another can be a Private Estate
(16:06:31) Fly-Man-: that's why it's region based
(16:06:32) diva: Melanie: the word "product" raises all sorts of red
flags
(16:06:40) Melanie_t: seemingly only with you
(16:06:49) diva: where did this come from?
(16:06:56) diva: I had never heard of this before
(16:07:00) Melanie_t: since i believe, for all others here, it is a
product, or something to be prodictized
(16:07:01) diva: and I bet nobody knows either
(16:07:07) diva: so let me raise this in -dev
(16:07:27) Kirtai: all the configurations I see in Region.ini are
technical, except this one. Feels like the wrong place
(16:07:30) Melanie_t: we have regularly used the field names the LLUDP
packets use
(16:07:46) Melanie_t: more than 90% of out naming are derived from LLUDP
(16:08:03) Melanie_t: i'm not attached to the name as such
(16:08:07) Snowcrash: Melanie_t ... that sentiment about productized, is
one of the very reasons I have against ever becoming part of core, or
having my engine in core
(16:08:17) Melanie_t: but i do wonder why you feel so strongly
(16:08:19) diva: we have been focusing on technical aspects, and do have
LL. Now they are focusing on Product aspects. Good for them
(16:08:42) diva: I have no interest in Linden Lab's products
(16:08:47) Melanie_t: Snowcrash: if you're allergic to making money,
fine
(16:08:50) diva: and I think OpenSim should stay away from them too
(16:09:02) Melanie_t: diva: this is not about Linden lab's products
(16:09:06) Kirtai: would it not be better to have that information in a
seperate file associated with regions?
(16:09:09) diva: because lots of people have completely difference ideas
about products on top of OpenSim that have nothing to do with LL's
product
(16:09:19) Melanie_t: it's about a string that anyone making _a_ product
can use to iidentify it
(16:09:30) diva: no
(16:09:40) Melanie_t: it's not limited to expressing linden lab's
product choices
(16:09:41) diva: It's a specific products related to region management
(16:09:53) diva: it's very specific
(16:10:01) Melanie_t: how so?
(16:10:06) diva: it's in the region
(16:10:12) Melanie_t: you can set it to "xyzzy"
(16:10:21) Melanie_t: or "Faculty Zone"
(16:10:25) diva: lots of producs that ppl may want to do have nothing to
do with that
(16:10:28) Melanie_t: it's not lindenish
(16:10:33) diva: it is
(16:10:43) Melanie_t: how is attaching a string to a region lindenish?
(16:10:52) diva: that string is called ProductName
(16:10:55) Melanie_t: so?
(16:10:58) diva: it's Linden's business model
(16:11:02) Melanie_t: it's not called LindenProductName
(16:11:04) diva: they sell real estate
(16:11:08) Melanie_t: i do, too
(16:11:11) Melanie_t: am i linden?
(16:11:13) diva: I don't
(16:11:18) diva: lots of ppl don't either
(16:11:23) Melanie_t: so why do you mean to invalidate my use case?
(16:11:29) Melanie_t: or adam's
(16:11:30) diva: you can do it as an extensionm
(16:11:37) Melanie_t: as he also sells region hosting
(16:12:13) diva: good for him and you. But let's not tie OpenSim to
Linden Lab's business model
(16:12:18) Snowcrash: the question is, "should the core, support this
use case, or should it go to an out-of-core module"
(16:12:31) Melanie_t: just the same i could say that i don't recognize a
division between student and faculty assets because my use case doesn't
include it
(16:12:35) Snowcrash: like money
(16:12:44) Hiro_Protagonist: the question, Snowcrash is why you are even
participating in this conversation
(16:12:45) Melanie_t: Snowcrash: it can't go to module
(16:12:51) Melanie_t: that file is not accessible to modules
(16:12:52) Fly-Man-: Snowcrash: That's the issue
(16:12:58) osmantis: Bug #4268: nini.ini.iniexception
( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4268 ): has been
SUBMITTED.
(16:12:58) Snowcrash: Hiro .. why can't I?
(16:13:05) Hiro_Protagonist: as you have no interest in contributing to
this project, and no interest in monetizing it
(16:13:15) Fly-Man-: The RegionHandshake packet sends this info
(16:13:17) Snowcrash: if you don't want other to participate, move it to
the dev channel
(16:13:19) Melanie_t: true, Snowcrash, you have declared you want no
part of core
(16:13:30) Fly-Man-: part of the packet is the sending of information
(16:13:37) Hiro_Protagonist: this is the dev vhannel snowcrash
(16:13:40) Melanie_t: and, incidentally, we can't change it's name int
he regionHandshake, either
(16:13:48) diva: If you want to develop a product that mimics LL's
product, you can subclass RegionInfo
(16:13:50) Snowcrash: last I heard, there was a core-dev channel
(16:13:51) Fly-Man-: that Search uses to make a difference between
Mainland / OpenSpace and Private Estates
(16:14:14) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash, mind your manners and put a cork
in it
(16:14:20) Melanie_t: we've been here before. i'm astonished that you of
all people would opt to cripple something
(16:14:22) Kirtai: Melanie_t: would a seperate file that maps regions to
categories (not just products) work? Or change the entry from products
to SearchKeys?
(16:14:31) Snowcrash: and .. Hiro, I have supplied patches to mantis
(16:14:37) Melanie_t: Kirtai: the packet used is built in core
(16:14:42) Melanie_t: the config file is read by core
(16:14:48) diva: Melanie_t the word product makes me go to Mars and back
(16:14:49) Melanie_t: all the plu,bing is core
(16:14:59) Melanie_t: diva: why hang it all up on a word?
(16:15:01) Kirtai: then what about my second suggestion?
(16:15:06) diva: if we are supporting a "product" in core I want shares
of it
(16:15:07) Melanie_t: it's called that int he LL packet, we can't change
that
(16:15:08) Kirtai: Call it SearchKeys
(16:15:18) Snowcrash: Hiro .. you need to ask yourself, do you want me
to leave this channel or not
(16:15:29) diva: if there is a technical justification for it, let's
find it and call it the right word
(16:15:43) osmantis: Bug #4268: nini.ini.iniexception
( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4268 ): A NOTE has been
added to this issue.
(16:15:45) Kirtai: so it forms an extensible region search function
instead of a restricted one
(16:15:45) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash, you need to ask yourself whether
I have sufficient patience this morning to avoid tossing you out of it
(16:15:51) Melanie_t: it's, at the very least, an extra differentiation
criterion in search
(16:15:59) diva: in LL's search
(16:16:00) Fly-Man-: diva: http://search.pastebin.com/d69c6d45
(16:16:02) Melanie_t: and since search is so coarse to start with, that
is important
(16:16:14) Snowcrash: if you think you gain something for the project by
doing so, by all means
(16:16:15) diva: that's Linden Lab;'s search
(16:16:16) Melanie_t: diva: LL is still all the client we have
(16:16:16) Fly-Man-: Above part, RegionHandle from SL
(16:16:27) Fly-Man-: Below part, OpenSim response
(16:16:28) Hiro_Protagonist: Diva, Melanie_T - time out for a sec
(16:16:39) Hiro_Protagonist: lets not go to blows if you please
(16:17:03) Hiro_Protagonist: 1st question: is it possible to use this
packet at all without using lindenisms
(16:17:12) Fly-Man-: Hiro_Protagonist: Yes
(16:17:15) Melanie_t: hell no
(16:17:22) Fly-Man-: The packet already exists
(16:17:23) Melanie_t: Regionhandshake is a linden packet
(16:17:28) Hiro_Protagonist: clearly it's in our interest to implement
all the packets
(16:17:33) Melanie_t: so it actually US a lindenism
(16:17:37) Melanie_t: IS*
(16:17:40) diva: I have no problem with the packets having that info
(16:17:45) Hiro_Protagonist: obviously we dont want to be tied to linden
specific uses of this particular packet
(16:17:49) Fly-Man-: diva: Where is your problem then ?
(16:18:01) Melanie_t: her problem is the work "Prodict"
(16:18:11) Melanie_t: althogh 95% of core are commercially motivated
(16:18:24) Hiro_Protagonist: Melanie_T: that's not really a defense
(16:18:29) Melanie_t: by either being employed by a company that is
commercially motivated
(16:18:36) Melanie_t: or being in business related to opensim
(16:18:40) diva: I have a problem with us using that info in core as
"product" and for product purposes, which happens to be a Linden Lab
product
(16:18:43) Hiro_Protagonist: opensim is not for 95% of the users its for
all 100%
(16:18:56) diva: so if there'e a technical reason for that string in
RegionInfo I would like to know what it is and I will support it
(16:19:01) Melanie_t: but here 5% want to limit the abilities of the 95%
(16:19:08) Fly-Man-: diva: then ask Linden Labs to change it to
InfoSpace
(16:19:09) Kirtai: may I make a suggestion?
(16:19:10) Fly-Man-: or whatever
(16:19:26) diva: Technical reason
(16:19:29) Hiro_Protagonist: I really have difficulty believing that Mel
(16:19:37) Fly-Man-: diva: Showing the right info in Search
(16:19:44) Fly-Man-: usage of information for Caps message
(16:19:47) Hiro_Protagonist: that's a Melanie_T opinion, not what Diva
has expressed
(16:19:50) Melanie_t: Hiro_Protagonist: believing what?
(16:19:55) Melanie_t: the commercial motivation?
(16:19:57) Fly-Man-: and telling the user where he is at
(16:20:03) Fly-Man-: that's the technical reasons
(16:20:03) Hiro_Protagonist: that 5% wants to limit the other 95%
(16:20:34) Hiro_Protagonist: we dont have the packet implemented now,
and I certainly am not missing the use of it in my enterprise
(16:20:44) Fly-Man-: Hiro_Protagonist: The packet is already implemented
(16:20:47) Fly-Man-: LONG time ago
(16:20:47) Melanie_t: well, if that info should not be sent because the
5% here object to something that can be used for productization being
included,, then it is so
(16:20:52) Fly-Man-: but the value isn't send
(16:21:03) Hiro_Protagonist: then it isnt fully implemented
(16:21:06) Fly-Man-: the only change Melanie_t made
(16:21:13) Fly-Man-: is to add the value to the Region example
(16:21:20) Fly-Man-: so it can be used for ppl that want to use it
(16:21:30) Fly-Man-: You're not asked when creating a new region
(16:21:36) Fly-Man-: just when you set it up yourself
(16:21:48) Fly-Man-: and at this moment, that value is not send in the
RegionHandShake
(16:21:55) Fly-Man-: as that's not implemented
(16:21:57) diva: Melanie_t: I respect your busniess plans, but there's a
limit. If you have a good technical reason for that extra field, please
explain it. Otherwise it looks like we are here to work for free
developing *your* product
(16:22:00) Hiro_Protagonist: from an architectural perspective, I have
to agree with Diva, I dont like this being in core
(16:22:08) Kirtai: It sounds like what you want is a general region
tagging and search facility, but definining it as Product is
unnecessarily specific and limiting.
(16:22:24) Melanie_t: diva: we are all sharing development foe each of
our products
(16:22:31) Hiro_Protagonist: that said, I am not antagonistic from
product-centric things being a part of the broader work
(16:22:52) Melanie_t: and regardless of a name
(16:22:59) Melanie_t: that is precisely what we all do
(16:23:09) Melanie_t: assist others in developing their product
(16:23:22) diva: My product has nothing to do with Linden Lab's product.
I don't ever plan on selling "OpenSpaces" or whatever those things are
called.
(16:23:23) Melanie_t: i just don't have an idealistic veneer over it. 
(16:23:39) Melanie_t: diva: you are NOT limited to using the string that
way
(16:23:41) Snowcrash: I would like to point out, that I am not here for
the money
(16:23:47) diva: call it something else, give me a technical reason
(16:23:59) diva: a technical concept
(16:23:59) Fly-Man-: Technical reason
(16:24:08) Fly-Man-: If you implement it:
(16:24:12) Hiro_Protagonist: I'm not at all sure why you are here at all
Snowcrash
(16:24:20) Fly-Man-: 'Search can work better as it knows the value"
(16:24:29) Fly-Man-: "Search can make sure it finds the right info for
you"
(16:24:38) diva: Flye-Man- that;s a search that mimics Linden Lab's
product
(16:24:41) Fly-Man-: "Region owner knows what kind of region he/she has"
(16:24:46) Fly-Man-: diva: Yupz
(16:24:49) Snowcrash: maybe because I like the core idea LL has brought
to metaverses
(16:24:50) Hiro_Protagonist: RegionClassification works for me, or even
OptionalRegionClassificationTag
(16:24:52) Fly-Man-: and the problem with it is:
(16:24:56) diva: there is no "kind of region" in my mind in core
(16:25:01) You have been kicked by Hiro_Protagonist: (Hiro_Protagonist)

and then in #opensim

(16:27:20) Snowcrash: so, Hiro_Protagonist, are you going to kick me
from here as well, maybe even ban my regions from OSGrid, perhaps
disable my accounts there as well
(16:27:48) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash: if your actions warrant such,
yes I will
(16:28:06) Snowcrash: did I behave in an obnoxious manner?
(16:28:29) Snowcrash: or is the fact that I don't release under a normal
BSD sufficient reason
(16:29:41) Snowcrash: how did my actions warrant being kicked from -dev?
(16:29:47) Snowcrash: what did I do that was so wrong?
(16:30:08) Snowcrash: let me know, so I can avoid that behaviour again
(16:31:13) Hippo-Finesmith: ahhh i c hiro strikes again 
(16:31:23) Hiro_Protagonist: it's quite simple really - you have
expressed a complete lack of willingness to participate in this
community on it's terms
(16:31:28) Hiro_Protagonist: this is a bsd project
(16:31:34) Snowcrash: yes .. and for some reason I don't understand,
that's the worst
(16:31:37) Hiro_Protagonist: you get tons of support for your work
(16:31:50) Hiro_Protagonist: and dont contribute that work in its
fullness back to the entire community
(16:31:58) Hiro_Protagonist: you are a parasite
(16:32:01) Snowcrash: Hiro, so the patches I have put into mantis
accounts for nothing?
(16:32:17) Snowcrash: and in order to be in -dev you must release all
code under BSD?
(16:32:19) Hippo-Finesmith: using ure rerasones there hiro then 90% of
ppl in this channel are
(16:32:19) Hiro_Protagonist: I dont know what patches you have put into
mantis
(16:32:38) Snowcrash: take a look, or talk to Melanie_t
(16:32:55) Hiro_Protagonist: no, snowcrash - you dont have to release
your code bsd to be in -dev
(16:33:16) Snowcrash: (16:31:28) Hiro_Protagonist: this is a bsd project
(16:33:25) Hiro_Protagonist: but if I tell you to but out of a
conversation you have no business in on -dev, you better take heed
(16:33:36) Snowcrash: (16:31:58) Hiro_Protagonist: you are a parasite
(16:33:42) Hiro_Protagonist: you are
(16:33:43) Snowcrash: what am I parasitiing?
(16:33:48) osmantis: Bug #4267: LLUPDserver keep sending warnings about
startpingchecks ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4267 ):
has been set CHILD OF issue 0004257.
(16:33:49) osmantis: Bug #4257: [LLUDPCLIENT] Received a StartPingCheck
packet from an unrecognized source, after hg jump
( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4257 ): has been set
PARENT OF issue 0004267.
(16:34:06) Hiro_Protagonist: the time and attention of people who work
for the interests of the entire community without reservation
(16:34:20) Snowcrash: I have made non only code contributions, but also
participated in helping others in design and implementation
(16:34:24) Snowcrash: is that parasiting?
(16:34:46) Snowcrash: so I should release under full BSD, or not be part
of -dev
(16:34:58) Snowcrash: what about Adam and Mel or JHurliman?
(16:35:17) Snowcrash: or MW for that matter
(16:35:30) osmantis: Bug #4267: LLUPDserver keep sending warnings about
startpingchecks ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4267 ): A
NOTE has been added to this issue.
(16:35:56) Snowcrash: what happened with, "begin gratefull for what
contributions people make" ?
(16:36:30) Snowcrash: so I ask again, how am I a parasite, name
specifics
(16:37:54) Snowcrash: I have a feeling that this is really about,
standards being good, double standards are twice as good
(16:38:37) Hippo-Finesmith: i have a feeling its also about Hiro wanting
to feel almighty powerfull :)

I believe I - at the very least - deserve an explantion why, so I can
avoid that information in the future.