[Opensim-dev] Currency

Frisby, Adam adam at deepthink.com.au
Sat Jul 11 22:01:31 UTC 2009 

I will, if you can prove you know enough about computer security and writing secure code.

Adam

> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-
> bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
> Sent: Saturday, 11 July 2009 6:48 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
> As far as I now, the "currency" project (DTL currency) is maintained
> by DTL and may not accept outside developers.
>
> Melanie
>
> Aldon Hynes wrote:
> > Melanie, et al.,
> >
> >    Thanks for the update.  I've joined the opencurrency project and
> have put
> > in a request to join the currency project as well.  Is there any
> > documentation on how to install this?
> >
> >    I've added links to both projects to the bottom of the Money page
> in the
> > OpenSim wiki.  Is the OpenSim Wiki sufficient for handling this
> project, or
> > is there need and interest in a parallel Wiki specific to currency
> > implementations for OpenSim?
> >
> > Aldon
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> > [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Melanie
> > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:17 AM
> > To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >
> >
> > The project is "opencurrency" on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP
> > server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation.
> >
> > Melanie
> >
> > Aldon Hynes wrote:
> >> Melanie, Fly Man, et al.,
> >>
> >>    It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on
> forge
> >> and that there are people interested in working on developing it.
> On
> >> Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project
> and
> >> asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was.  No one
> stepped
> >> forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting
> >> implementation.
> >>
> >>    I searched around and couldn't find anything.  On the OpenSim
> Wiki
> > there
> >> is the
> >> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which "is intended as an open
> > discussion
> >> board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system".
> Unfortunately,
> > it
> >> does not provide any links to sample implementations.
> >>
> >>    It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem.
> After
> >> reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find
> >> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching
> through
> > the
> >> repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides
> >> information about doing an installation of the module.
> (Installation
> >> information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 )
> >>
> >>    It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled
> webserver,
> >> which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time.  It
> would
> > be
> >> interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or
> perhaps a
> >> lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a
> > standard
> >> OpenSim installation.
> >>
> >>    With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and
> help
> >> document this project.  I can help with a LAMP money server that
> could
> >> potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example,
> Jeroen was
> >> asking about a WiXTD interface).
> >>
> >>    All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two
> weeks.
> > I
> >> will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on
> this
> >> substantially until August.  However, I would love to get some
> responses
> > now
> >> and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone
> that
> >> wants it.
> >>
> >> Aldon
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Melanie
> >> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM
> >> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and
> >> keeping it available.
> >>
> >> I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had
> >> it for more than a year.
> >>
> >> We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making
> >> it as easy to access and integrate it as we can.
> >> We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have
> >> remove the interfaces.
> >> We just can't risk it in core.
> >>
> >> Melanie
> >>
> >> Fly Man wrote:
> >>> Well, what a long discussion about something that was already
> decided
> >>> long ago ....
> >>>
> >>> There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around
> >>> with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related
> things.
> >>>
> >>> The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I
> left
> >>> the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said:
> "It's
> >>> SAMPLE money"
> >>>
> >>> I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak
> >>> and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now.
> >>>
> >>> The story continues .......
> >>>
> >>> 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short <snowdrop.short at gmail.com>:
> >>>> The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may
> think
> >>>> and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not
> including a
> >>>> money module.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe
> continuing
> >>>> to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing
> >>>> ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great
> effort on
> >>>> the project and completely needless.
> >>>>
> >>>> OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses
> currently
> >>>> in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being
> implemented,
> >>>> either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that
> the core
> >>>> will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-
> adequate.
> >>>> (This has been done for other out-of-core modules).
> >>>>
> >>>> Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the
> scope
> >>>> of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the
> >>>> module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-
> core
> >>>> module for handling money and an in-core one.
> >>>>
> >>>> If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards
> creating
> >>>> an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite
> rapidly.
> >>>>
> >>>> /Snowcrash
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Neb,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the
> >>>>> arguments.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the
> alpha
> >>>>> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha,
> through
> >>>>> beta, and onto release.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let me put it this way, quite clearly..
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for
> a
> >>>>> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is
> released)
> >>>>> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to
> the
> >>>>> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third
> party
> >>>>> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where
> the two
> >>>>> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim),
> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> are sourced from different suppliers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now, please explain to me the difference between:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency
> module,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been
> >>>>> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset
> >>>>> server malfunction?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of
> >>>>> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from
> the
> >>>>> currency module.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or
> eventually
> >>>>> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so
> much
> >>>>> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still
> loses
> >>>>> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents
> just 2
> >>>>> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is there any real difference between:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up
> then on
> >>>>> my balance,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch,
> losing US
> >>>>> $10's worth of inworld currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency
> equivalent
> >>>>> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the
> same
> >>>>> time:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Currency module = big risk
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Asset server = no risk
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for
> risk
> >>>>> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that
> risk,
> >>>>> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is
> that
> >>>>> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as
> SL
> >>>>> does) by a carefully worded TOS.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rock
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of
> Nebadon
> >>>>> Izumi
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
> >>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rock,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do
> not
> >>>>> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for
> that
> >>>>> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money
> around,
> >>>>> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is
> secure,
> >>>>> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk
> so
> >>>>> that you can have an economic system,  It is this exact argument
> you
> >>>>> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say
> no
> >>>>> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can
> make
> >>>>> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A,
> >>>>> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a
> professional who
> >>>>> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this
> software
> >>>>> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide
> the
> >>>>> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do
> things
> >>>>> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.
> You
> >>>>> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change
> the
> >>>>> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we
> souldnt
> >>>>> even be discussing this as an option until well after
> opensimulator
> >>>>> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again
> >>>>> repeat, it currently is not!!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Neb
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers
> >>>>> <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree
> with
> >>>>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be
> >>>>> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything
> that
> >>>>> people have bought with an external currency module) is not
> considered
> >>>>> even more of a risk.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rock
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan
> >>>>> Andersson
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rock,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been
> declared as
> >>>>> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the
> >>>>> custom implementation/third party provider layer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the
> line
> >>>>> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external
> >>>>> module creators and custom implementation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a
> module,
> >>>>> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often
> it's a
> >>>>> case of weighting several variables against each other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In this case, it's been a long standing stance that
> implementation of
> >>>>> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core
> >>>>> distribution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that
> people
> >>>>> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live
> and
> >>>>> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free
> from
> >>>>> that with a  "suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk",
> it's not
> >>>>> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose
> our
> >>>>> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct
> >>>>> economic damage. We generally don't want to take decisions for
> our
> >>>>> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy
> >>>>> decision.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside
> of
> >>>>> core would be an indication that it's right not having one
> inside; if
> >>>>> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either
> means
> >>>>> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation
> is
> >>>>> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general
> >>>>> public.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs
> a
> >>>>> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before
> >>>>> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core
> distribution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /Stefan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin
> B.
> >>>>> Withers
> >>>>> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27
> >>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have
> it,
> >>>>> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using
> either
> >>>>> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D
> chatroom.
> >>>>> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed
> my
> >>>>> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational
> >>>>> purposes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual
> world,
> >>>>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential
> to
> >>>>> that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency
> >>>>> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my
> money"
> >>>>> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever
> opensim
> >>>>> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
> >>>>> estate, for real world money (whether a  currency module is
> >>>>> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to
> >>>>> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be
> >>>>> liable for the claims of others.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow
> it) by
> >>>>> use of a carefully worded TOS.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might
> >>>>> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost
> US$$$" or
> >>>>> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several
> >>>>> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
> >>>>> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency
> module.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rock
> >>>>>
> >>>>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into,
> has
> >>>>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hart
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
> >>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and
> no
> >>>>> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and
> >>>>> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And
> >>>>> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency
> >>>>> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage
> correctly.
> >>>>> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you
> want
> >>>>> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out
> there
> >>>>> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want
> (hence
> >>>>> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand
> core
> >>>>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially
> come
> >>>>> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Colin B. Withers
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and
> OpenCurrency
> >>>>> removed?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing
> more
> >>>>> than 3D chatrooms.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rock
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of
> Melanie
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
> >>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
> >>>>> implementation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Melanie
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> >>>>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed,
> meaning my
> >>>>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw
> >>>>> OPENCURRENCY
> >>>>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need
> help.
> >>>>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
> >>>>> >> bikcmp2 at gmail.com
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> Opensim-dev mailing list
> >>>>> >> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> > Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>>>> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>
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