[Opensim-dev] Currency

Sat Jul 11 13:48:07 UTC 2009

As far as I now, the "currency" project (DTL currency) is maintained 
by DTL and may not accept outside developers.

Melanie

Aldon Hynes wrote:
> Melanie, et al.,
> 
>    Thanks for the update.  I've joined the opencurrency project and have put
> in a request to join the currency project as well.  Is there any
> documentation on how to install this?
> 
>    I've added links to both projects to the bottom of the Money page in the
> OpenSim wiki.  Is the OpenSim Wiki sufficient for handling this project, or
> is there need and interest in a parallel Wiki specific to currency
> implementations for OpenSim?
> 
> Aldon
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Melanie
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:17 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
> The project is "opencurrency" on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP
> server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation.
> 
> Melanie
> 
> Aldon Hynes wrote:
>> Melanie, Fly Man, et al.,
>>
>>    It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge
>> and that there are people interested in working on developing it.  On
>> Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and
>> asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was.  No one stepped
>> forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting
>> implementation.
>>
>>    I searched around and couldn't find anything.  On the OpenSim Wiki
> there
>> is the
>> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which "is intended as an open
> discussion
>> board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system".  Unfortunately,
> it
>> does not provide any links to sample implementations.
>>
>>    It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem.  After
>> reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find
>> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through
> the
>> repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides
>> information about doing an installation of the module.  (Installation
>> information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 )
>>
>>    It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver,
>> which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time.  It would
> be
>> interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a
>> lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a
> standard
>> OpenSim installation.
>>
>>    With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help
>> document this project.  I can help with a LAMP money server that could
>> potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was
>> asking about a WiXTD interface).
>>
>>    All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks.
> I
>> will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this
>> substantially until August.  However, I would love to get some responses
> now
>> and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that
>> wants it.
>>
>> Aldon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Melanie
>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM
>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>
>>
>> Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and
>> keeping it available.
>>
>> I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had
>> it for more than a year.
>>
>> We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making
>> it as easy to access and integrate it as we can.
>> We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have
>> remove the interfaces.
>> We just can't risk it in core.
>>
>> Melanie
>>
>> Fly Man wrote:
>>> Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided
>>> long ago ....
>>>
>>> There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around
>>> with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things.
>>>
>>> The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left
>>> the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: "It's
>>> SAMPLE money"
>>>
>>> I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak
>>> and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now.
>>>
>>> The story continues .......
>>>
>>> 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short <snowdrop.short at gmail.com>:
>>>> The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think
>>>> and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a
>>>> money module.
>>>>
>>>> I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing
>>>> to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing
>>>> ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on
>>>> the project and completely needless.
>>>>
>>>> OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently
>>>> in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented,
>>>> either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core
>>>> will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate.
>>>> (This has been done for other out-of-core modules).
>>>>
>>>> Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope
>>>> of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the
>>>> module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core
>>>> module for handling money and an in-core one.
>>>>
>>>> If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating
>>>> an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly.
>>>>
>>>> /Snowcrash
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote:
>>>>> Hi Neb,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the
>>>>> arguments.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha
>>>>> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through
>>>>> beta, and onto release.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me put it this way, quite clearly..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a
>>>>> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released)
>>>>> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the
>>>>> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party
>>>>> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two
>>>>> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> are sourced from different suppliers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, please explain to me the difference between:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been
>>>>> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset
>>>>> server malfunction?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of
>>>>> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the
>>>>> currency module.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually
>>>>> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much
>>>>> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses
>>>>> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2
>>>>> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any real difference between:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on
>>>>> my balance,
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US
>>>>> $10's worth of inworld currency
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent
>>>>> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same
>>>>> time:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Currency module = big risk
>>>>>
>>>>> Asset server = no risk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk
>>>>> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk,
>>>>> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that
>>>>> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL
>>>>> does) by a carefully worded TOS.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rock
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon
>>>>> Izumi
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rock,
>>>>>
>>>>> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not
>>>>> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that
>>>>> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around,
>>>>> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure,
>>>>> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so
>>>>> that you can have an economic system,  It is this exact argument you
>>>>> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no
>>>>> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make
>>>>> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A,
>>>>> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who
>>>>> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software
>>>>> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the
>>>>> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things
>>>>> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.  You
>>>>> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the
>>>>> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt
>>>>> even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator
>>>>> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again
>>>>> repeat, it currently is not!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Neb
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers
>>>>> <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with
>>>>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be
>>>>> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that
>>>>> people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered
>>>>> even more of a risk.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rock
>>>>>
>>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan
>>>>> Andersson
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rock,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as
>>>>> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the
>>>>> custom implementation/third party provider layer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line
>>>>> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external
>>>>> module creators and custom implementation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module,
>>>>> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a
>>>>> case of weighting several variables against each other.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of
>>>>> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core
>>>>> distribution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people
>>>>> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
>>>>> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from
>>>>> that with a  “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not
>>>>> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our
>>>>> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct
>>>>> economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our
>>>>> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy
>>>>> decision.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of
>>>>> core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if
>>>>> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means
>>>>> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is
>>>>> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general
>>>>> public.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a
>>>>> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before
>>>>> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> /Stefan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B.
>>>>> Withers
>>>>> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it,
>>>>> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either
>>>>> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom.
>>>>> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my
>>>>> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational
>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world,
>>>>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency
>>>>> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money"
>>>>> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim
>>>>> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
>>>>> estate, for real world money (whether a  currency module is
>>>>> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to
>>>>> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be
>>>>> liable for the claims of others.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by
>>>>> use of a carefully worded TOS.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might
>>>>> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or
>>>>> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several
>>>>> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
>>>>> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rock
>>>>>
>>>>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has
>>>>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no
>>>>> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and
>>>>> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And
>>>>> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency
>>>>> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly.
>>>>> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want
>>>>> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there
>>>>> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence
>>>>> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core
>>>>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come
>>>>> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Colin B. Withers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency
>>>>> removed?
>>>>>
>>>>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more
>>>>> than 3D chatrooms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rock
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
>>>>> implementation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Melanie
>>>>>
>>>>> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
>>>>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw
>>>>> OPENCURRENCY
>>>>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
>>>>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
>>>>> >> bikcmp2 at gmail.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
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>>>>> >>
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>>>>> >
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
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