[Opensim-dev] Currency

Sat Jul 11 13:17:22 UTC 2009

The project is "opencurrency" on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP 
server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation.

Melanie

Aldon Hynes wrote:
> Melanie, Fly Man, et al.,
> 
>    It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge
> and that there are people interested in working on developing it.  On
> Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and
> asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was.  No one stepped
> forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting
> implementation.
> 
>    I searched around and couldn't find anything.  On the OpenSim Wiki there
> is the
> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which "is intended as an open discussion
> board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system".  Unfortunately, it
> does not provide any links to sample implementations.
> 
>    It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem.  After
> reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find
> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the
> repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides
> information about doing an installation of the module.  (Installation
> information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 )
> 
>    It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver,
> which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time.  It would be
> interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a
> lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard
> OpenSim installation.
> 
>    With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help
> document this project.  I can help with a LAMP money server that could
> potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was
> asking about a WiXTD interface).
> 
>    All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks.  I
> will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this
> substantially until August.  However, I would love to get some responses now
> and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that
> wants it.
> 
> Aldon
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Melanie
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
> Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and
> keeping it available.
> 
> I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had
> it for more than a year.
> 
> We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making
> it as easy to access and integrate it as we can.
> We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have
> remove the interfaces.
> We just can't risk it in core.
> 
> Melanie
> 
> Fly Man wrote:
>> Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided
>> long ago ....
>>
>> There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around
>> with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things.
>>
>> The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left
>> the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: "It's
>> SAMPLE money"
>>
>> I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak
>> and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now.
>>
>> The story continues .......
>>
>> 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short <snowdrop.short at gmail.com>:
>>> The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think
>>> and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a
>>> money module.
>>>
>>> I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing
>>> to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing
>>> ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on
>>> the project and completely needless.
>>>
>>> OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently
>>> in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented,
>>> either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core
>>> will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate.
>>> (This has been done for other out-of-core modules).
>>>
>>> Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope
>>> of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the
>>> module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core
>>> module for handling money and an in-core one.
>>>
>>> If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating
>>> an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly.
>>>
>>> /Snowcrash
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote:
>>>> Hi Neb,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the
>>>> arguments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha
>>>> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through
>>>> beta, and onto release.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me put it this way, quite clearly..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a
>>>> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released)
>>>> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the
>>>> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party
>>>> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two
>>>> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> are sourced from different suppliers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, please explain to me the difference between:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been
>>>> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset
>>>> server malfunction?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of
>>>> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the
>>>> currency module.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually
>>>> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much
>>>> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses
>>>> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2
>>>> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is there any real difference between:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on
>>>> my balance,
>>>>
>>>> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US
>>>> $10's worth of inworld currency
>>>>
>>>> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent
>>>> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same
>>>> time:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Currency module = big risk
>>>>
>>>> Asset server = no risk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk
>>>> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk,
>>>> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that
>>>> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL
>>>> does) by a carefully worded TOS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon
>>>> Izumi
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rock,
>>>>
>>>> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not
>>>> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that
>>>> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around,
>>>> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure,
>>>> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so
>>>> that you can have an economic system,  It is this exact argument you
>>>> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no
>>>> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make
>>>> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A,
>>>> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who
>>>> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software
>>>> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the
>>>> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things
>>>> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.  You
>>>> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the
>>>> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt
>>>> even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator
>>>> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again
>>>> repeat, it currently is not!!!
>>>>
>>>> Neb
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers
>>>> <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with
>>>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be
>>>> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that
>>>> people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered
>>>> even more of a risk.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rock
>>>>
>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan
>>>> Andersson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rock,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as
>>>> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the
>>>> custom implementation/third party provider layer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line
>>>> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external
>>>> module creators and custom implementation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module,
>>>> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a
>>>> case of weighting several variables against each other.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of
>>>> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core
>>>> distribution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people
>>>> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
>>>> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from
>>>> that with a  “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not
>>>> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our
>>>> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct
>>>> economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our
>>>> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy
>>>> decision.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of
>>>> core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if
>>>> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means
>>>> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is
>>>> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general
>>>> public.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a
>>>> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before
>>>> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> /Stefan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B.
>>>> Withers
>>>> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27
>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it,
>>>> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either
>>>> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom.
>>>> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my
>>>> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world,
>>>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency
>>>> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money"
>>>> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim
>>>> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
>>>> estate, for real world money (whether a  currency module is
>>>> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to
>>>> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be
>>>> liable for the claims of others.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by
>>>> use of a carefully worded TOS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might
>>>> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or
>>>> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several
>>>> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
>>>> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rock
>>>>
>>>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has
>>>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no
>>>> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and
>>>> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And
>>>> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency
>>>> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly.
>>>> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want
>>>> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there
>>>> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence
>>>> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core
>>>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come
>>>> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Colin B. Withers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency
>>>> removed?
>>>>
>>>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more
>>>> than 3D chatrooms.
>>>>
>>>> Rock
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>>
>>>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
>>>> implementation.
>>>>
>>>> Melanie
>>>>
>>>> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
>>>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw
>>>> OPENCURRENCY
>>>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
>>>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
>>>> >> bikcmp2 at gmail.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
>>>>
>>>>
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