[Opensim-dev] Currency

Sat Jul 11 13:13:02 UTC 2009

Melanie, Fly Man, et al.,

   It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge
and that there are people interested in working on developing it.  On
Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and
asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was.  No one stepped
forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting
implementation.

   I searched around and couldn't find anything.  On the OpenSim Wiki there
is the
http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which "is intended as an open discussion
board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system".  Unfortunately, it
does not provide any links to sample implementations.

   It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem.  After
reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find
http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the
repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides
information about doing an installation of the module.  (Installation
information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 )

   It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver,
which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time.  It would be
interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a
lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard
OpenSim installation.

   With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help
document this project.  I can help with a LAMP money server that could
potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was
asking about a WiXTD interface).

   All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks.  I
will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this
substantially until August.  However, I would love to get some responses now
and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that
wants it.

Aldon

-----Original Message-----
From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Melanie
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency

Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and
keeping it available.

I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had
it for more than a year.

We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making
it as easy to access and integrate it as we can.
We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have
remove the interfaces.
We just can't risk it in core.

Melanie

Fly Man wrote:
> Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided
> long ago ....
>
> There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around
> with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things.
>
> The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left
> the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: "It's
> SAMPLE money"
>
> I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak
> and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now.
>
> The story continues .......
>
> 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short <snowdrop.short at gmail.com>:
>> The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think
>> and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a
>> money module.
>>
>> I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing
>> to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing
>> ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on
>> the project and completely needless.
>>
>> OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently
>> in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented,
>> either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core
>> will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate.
>> (This has been done for other out-of-core modules).
>>
>> Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope
>> of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the
>> module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core
>> module for handling money and an in-core one.
>>
>> If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating
>> an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly.
>>
>> /Snowcrash
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote:
>>> Hi Neb,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the
>>> arguments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha
>>> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through
>>> beta, and onto release.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me put it this way, quite clearly..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a
>>> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released)
>>> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the
>>> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party
>>> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two
>>> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> are sourced from different suppliers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, please explain to me the difference between:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been
>>> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset
>>> server malfunction?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of
>>> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the
>>> currency module.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually
>>> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much
>>> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses
>>> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2
>>> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there any real difference between:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on
>>> my balance,
>>>
>>> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US
>>> $10's worth of inworld currency
>>>
>>> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent
>>> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same
>>> time:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Currency module = big risk
>>>
>>> Asset server = no risk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk
>>> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk,
>>> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that
>>> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL
>>> does) by a carefully worded TOS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rock
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon
>>> Izumi
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rock,
>>>
>>> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not
>>> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that
>>> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around,
>>> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure,
>>> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so
>>> that you can have an economic system,  It is this exact argument you
>>> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no
>>> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make
>>> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A,
>>> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who
>>> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software
>>> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the
>>> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things
>>> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.  You
>>> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the
>>> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt
>>> even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator
>>> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again
>>> repeat, it currently is not!!!
>>>
>>> Neb
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers
>>> <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>>>
>>> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with
>>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be
>>> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that
>>> people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered
>>> even more of a risk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rock
>>>
>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan
>>> Andersson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rock,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as
>>> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the
>>> custom implementation/third party provider layer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line
>>> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external
>>> module creators and custom implementation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module,
>>> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a
>>> case of weighting several variables against each other.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of
>>> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core
>>> distribution.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people
>>> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
>>> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from
>>> that with a  “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not
>>> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our
>>> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct
>>> economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our
>>> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy
>>> decision.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of
>>> core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if
>>> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means
>>> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is
>>> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general
>>> public.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a
>>> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before
>>> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B.
>>> Withers
>>> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27
>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it,
>>> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either
>>> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom.
>>> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my
>>> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world,
>>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to
>>> that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency
>>> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money"
>>> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim
>>> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
>>> estate, for real world money (whether a  currency module is
>>> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to
>>> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be
>>> liable for the claims of others.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by
>>> use of a carefully worded TOS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might
>>> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or
>>> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several
>>> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
>>> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rock
>>>
>>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has
>>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart
>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no
>>> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and
>>> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And
>>> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency
>>> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly.
>>> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want
>>> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there
>>> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence
>>> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core
>>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come
>>> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Colin B. Withers
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency
>>> removed?
>>>
>>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more
>>> than 3D chatrooms.
>>>
>>> Rock
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>>>
>>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
>>> implementation.
>>>
>>> Melanie
>>>
>>> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
>>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw
>>> OPENCURRENCY
>>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
>>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
>>> >> bikcmp2 at gmail.com
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
>>>
>>>
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