[Opensim-dev] Currency

Wed Jul 8 17:44:26 UTC 2009

The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think
and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a
money module.

I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing
to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing
ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on
the project and completely needless.

OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently
in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented,
either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core
will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate.
(This has been done for other out-of-core modules).

Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope
of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the
module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core
module for handling money and an in-core one.

If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating
an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly.

/Snowcrash

On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote:
> Hi Neb,
> 
>  
> 
> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the
> arguments.
> 
>  
> 
> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha
> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through
> beta, and onto release.
> 
>  
> 
> Let me put it this way, quite clearly..
> 
>  
> 
> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a
> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released)
> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the
> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party
> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two
> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie:
> 
>  
> 
> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and
> 
>  
> 
> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)
> 
>  
> 
> are sourced from different suppliers.
> 
>  
> 
> Now, please explain to me the difference between:
> 
>  
> 
> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, 
> 
>  
> 
> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been
> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset
> server malfunction?
> 
>  
> 
> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of
> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the
> currency module.
> 
>  
> 
> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually
> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?
> 
>  
> 
> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much
> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses
> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2
> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that).
> 
>  
> 
> Is there any real difference between:
> 
>  
> 
> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on
> my balance,
> 
> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US
> $10's worth of inworld currency
> 
> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent
> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?
> 
>  
> 
> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.
> 
>  
> 
> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same
> time:
> 
>  
> 
> Currency module = big risk
> 
> Asset server = no risk
> 
>  
> 
> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk
> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk,
> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that
> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL
> does) by a carefully worded TOS.
> 
>  
> 
> Rock
> 
>  
> 
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon
> Izumi
> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Rock,
> 
> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not
> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that
> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around,
> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure,
> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so
> that you can have an economic system,  It is this exact argument you
> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no
> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make
> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A,
> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who
> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software
> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the
> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things
> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing.  You
> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the
> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt
> even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator
> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again
> repeat, it currently is not!!!
> 
> Neb
> 
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers
> <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
> 
> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with
> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be
> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that
> people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered
> even more of a risk.
> 
>  
> 
> Rock
> 
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan
> Andersson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
> 
> 
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Rock,
> 
>  
> 
> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as
> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the
> custom implementation/third party provider layer.
> 
>  
> 
> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line
> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external
> module creators and custom implementation.
> 
>  
> 
> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module,
> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
> 
>  
> 
> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a
> case of weighting several variables against each other.
> 
>  
> 
> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of
> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core
> distribution.
> 
>  
> 
> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people
> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from
> that with a  “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not
> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our
> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct
> economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our
> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy
> decision.
> 
>  
> 
> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of
> core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if
> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means
> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is
> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general
> public.
> 
>  
> 
> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a
> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before
> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.
> 
>  
> 
> /Stefan
> 
>  
> 
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B.
> Withers
> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
>  
> 
> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it,
> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either
> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom.
> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my
> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational
> purposes. 
> 
>  
> 
> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world,
> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to
> that.
> 
>  
> 
> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency
> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money"
> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim
> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
> estate, for real world money (whether a  currency module is
> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to
> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be
> liable for the claims of others.
> 
>  
> 
> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by
> use of a carefully worded TOS.
> 
>  
> 
> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might
> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or
> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several
> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?
> 
>  
> 
> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.
> 
>  
> 
> Rock
> 
> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has
> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
> 
>  
> 
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no
> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and
> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And
> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency
> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly.
> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want
> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there
> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence
> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core
> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come
> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> From: Colin B. Withers 
> 
> 
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
> 
> 
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency
> removed?
> 
> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more
> than 3D chatrooms.
> 
> Rock
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
> 
> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
> implementation.
> 
> Melanie
> 
> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw
> OPENCURRENCY
> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
> >> bikcmp2 at gmail.com
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >
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> -- 
> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
> 
> 
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