[Opensim-dev] Currency
Sean Hennessee
sean at uci.edu
Wed Jul 8 15:57:40 UTC 2009
One huge difference between having OpenSim assets stolen vs. having real
money stolen is that a lost asset means the *possible* loss of future
sales, not the immediate loss of real money. Having money/account
information stolen has 2 major disadvantages, 1) It's an immediate and
substantial loss 2) It could be way more than a mere US$10 if your
entire bank account is stolen or your identity is stolen.
OpenSim is about providing 3d virtual environments, not banking.
Peace,
Sean
Colin B. Withers wrote:
> Hi Neb,
>
>
>
> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments.
>
>
>
> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha
> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through
> beta, and onto release.
>
>
>
> Let me put it this way, quite clearly..
>
>
>
> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a
> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and
> that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim
> policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and
> procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most
> critical elements of a commerce system, ie:
>
>
>
> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and
>
>
>
> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc)
>
>
>
> are sourced from different suppliers.
>
>
>
> Now, please explain to me the difference between:
>
>
>
> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module,
>
>
>
> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought
> with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server
> malfunction?
>
>
>
> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people
> losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module.
>
>
>
> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually
> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets?
>
>
>
> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much
> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its
> residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3
> weeks ago is testament to that).
>
>
>
> Is there any real difference between:
>
>
>
> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my
> balance,
>
> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing
> US$10's worth of inworld currency
>
> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent
> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory?
>
>
>
> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down.
>
>
>
> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time:
>
>
>
> Currency module = big risk
>
> Asset server = no risk
>
>
>
> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it
> is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and
> hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk
> is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a
> carefully worded TOS.
>
>
>
> Rock
>
>
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
>
>
> Rock,
>
> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish
> to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason,
> OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset
> server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you
> people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you
> can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making
> that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone,
> you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if
> you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system
> yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security
> to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal
> research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if
> you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and
> security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to
> you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a
> monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this
> as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe
> environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!!
>
> Neb
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers
> <Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int <mailto:Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int>> wrote:
>
> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with
> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered
> risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have
> bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of
> a risk.
>
>
>
> Rock
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] *On Behalf Of *Stefan
> Andersson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM
>
>
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
>
>
> Rock,
>
>
>
> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as
> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom
> implementation/third party provider layer.
>
>
>
> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for
> what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module
> creators and custom implementation.
>
>
>
> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module,
> tailored for the specific use case, be created.
>
>
>
> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a
> case of weighting several variables against each other.
>
>
>
> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a
> monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution.
>
>
>
> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people
> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that
> with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a
> legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to
> unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage.
> We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one
> would be considered a real-world risk policy decision.
>
>
>
> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of
> core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if
> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means
> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too
> use case specific for there to be any value for the general public.
>
>
>
> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot
> more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything
> could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.
>
>
>
> /Stefan
>
>
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] *On Behalf Of *Colin B.
> Withers
> *Sent:* den 7 juli 2009 15:27
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
>
>
> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and
> does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core
> solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D
> chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own
> Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes.
>
>
>
> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world,
> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that.
>
>
>
> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module
> in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" is a
> specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is
> used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate,
> for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core
> or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid
> owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others.
>
>
>
> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by
> use of a carefully worded TOS.
>
>
>
> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim
> "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or "the
> bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this
> week, losing US$$$ in the process"?
>
>
>
> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.
>
>
>
> Rock
>
> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has
> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.
>
>
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hart
> *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
>
>
> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no
> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and
> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite
> frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system
> should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can
> do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay
> someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are
> properly regulated by financial services authorities.
>
>
>
> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I
> believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core
> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come
> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints.
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> *From:* Colin B. Withers <mailto:Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM
>
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
>
>
> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed?
>
> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more
> than 3D chatrooms.
>
> Rock
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
>
> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency
> implementation.
>
> Melanie
>
> Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>> Will currencies be distributed accross grids?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:bikcmp2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my
>> > grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY
>> > has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.
>> > Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS
>> > bikcmp2 at gmail.com <mailto:bikcmp2 at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> > _______________________________________________
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date:
> 07/05/09 17:54:00
>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
--
Sean Hennessee
UC Irvine
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