[Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator

Mon Jan 26 18:19:16 UTC 2009

I personally think that there are two issues here - one is the current 
architecture and the other is the future. I think that while working on 
current "pragmatic" solutions we should always have in mind the future - 
the future to me is unlimited concurrent online and the number of agents 
within a giving location/area being limited to only how close each can 
be packed - ie. how many college students in a phone booth.

So, when adding/changing/fixing the pragmatic, we should always ask 
ourselves does this advance us to the future, stand in place, or regress 
toward the past...

Chris Hart wrote:
>
> I certainly don’t see 1000 on a single region as remotely possible 
> under current architecture, not disputing that. I do have to wonder 
> what people consider as being an event suitable for 1000 people in a 
> single region – that’s a lot of people in not a lot of space (though 
> thinking in three dimensions might help), but what do you gain from 
> such an event? Chat alone would be almost overwhelming, and with 95% 
> of attendees not knowing how to pan the camera most of them would see 
> nothing but the head of the person infront of them – so I guess if you 
> want to emulate real life, you got it.
>
> You’re right to push the parameters to the extreme, because in the 
> absence of 1000 friends to test a simultaneous login, we all have to 
> improvise, so if it’s a case of loading up as many avatars as possible 
> with all clothing layers made with high-res textures, wearing a 
> thousand prims each, etc. then yes, it’s not an entirely unreasonable 
> scale test.
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de 
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi
> *Sent:* 26 January 2009 17:19
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
>
> well i think your sorta missing the point, say i did reduce my avatar 
> login footprint by 10, that would only mean that if 10 people 
> simulatanously logged in, which if your talking about 1000 avatars at 
> once is going to happen, it means that you will get the same results 
> if 10 avatars hit at once, so honestly even if we reduce the footprint 
> by 90% we still have the same problem on logins, the biggest problem i 
> see is mass login, when your talking about getting 1000 avatars into a 
> region for a single event, especially if it crashes you could be 
> potentially looking at over 100 avatars trying to log in at the same 
> time, how do we handle this?? if your talking about 1000 avatars you 
> need to talk about exteme usage case, not just fractional usage.
>
> Neb
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Chris Hart <Chris at codetorque.co.uk 
> <mailto:Chris at codetorque.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme 
> case I don't know what is! J The same rules apply to OpenSim as it 
> does on SL – performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in 
> for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many 
> thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might 
> as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept 
> defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and 
> attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as 
> smooth as possible for attendees.
>
> Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an "event" mode where you 
> block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise 
> the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a 
> confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the 
> regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup?
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de 
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de> 
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de 
> <mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de>] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon 
> Izumi
> *Sent:* 26 January 2009 17:01
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
>
> Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously 
> texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so).
>
> and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we 
> talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero 
> inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a 
> horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots 
> is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing 
> something with the simulator.
>
> Neb
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi <nebadon2025 at gmail.com 
> <mailto:nebadon2025 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at 
> the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally 
> to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably 
> generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 
> avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem 
> will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to 
> break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 
> 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can 
> ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 
> avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. 
> One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my 
> thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and 
> running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region 
> with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every 
> single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One 
> other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory 
> items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 
> 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures 
> or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at 
> all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 
> 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast 
> like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require 
> some major hardware/pipes to achieve.
>
> Neb
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 
> 25/01/2009 18:13
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de <mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 
> 25/01/2009 18:13
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1916 - Release Date: 1/26/2009 7:08 AM
>
>   