[Opensim-dev] Hypergrid patch

Tue Nov 18 18:50:13 UTC 2008

Sure, let's fix this to r7379.

Realistically, this is probably going to take somewhat longer than a few days.  Other core members haven't really had 
much of a chance to comment yet.  Ideally I think we would take a weekend to give people who are busy with non-OpenSim 
jobs during the week to take a look.

Also, I can only devote a certain fraction of my time to this, so it may take until the end of the week anyway if I'm 
working on my own.  Of course, any other assistance is very welcome.  What I feel we really need is a short summary from 
a third party on both the architectural features (pros and cons - there are almost always some cons with everything) and 
an assessment of the implementation itself.  Among other things, this would help us determine that we're happy to 
support it in the future.  For instance, is there an expectation that if I make a grid change, I now need to test it in 
standalone, grid *and* hypergrid mode?  We already see these issues with the bundled MSSQL database support where most 
core developers only change MySQL and maybe SQLite (though luckily we now have some excellent people like 
StrawberryFride and RuudL to help fix it up).

I feel that we should also be cautious because we have already had instances where flawed architectural changes have 
made it in to OpenSim without any prior analysis or discussion.  These cause consternation for a while until they can be 
absorbed or pushed aside.  I think spending a bit of time upfront on such big changes could save us a lot of time and 
pain later on.

Cristina Videira Lopes wrote:
> OK, I will do that, and thanks for looking into this.
> Can we please fix the assessment of the hypergrid to 7379 for the next 
> day or so. Otherwise it's like trying to change the oil on a moving car :-)
> Obviously, if this makes it to core, I will make a patch for whatever 
> head that will be, and taking into account whatever feedback is sent; 
> it's just the assessment process that I would like to fix, if possible.
> 
> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
>> I tried to apply the two patches and prebuild.xml in http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=2640 to r7379 today, 
>> intending to fix up the LLSD name change issues.
>>
>> However, there are various issues.
>>
>> 1.  The original hypergrid-1.patch (which contains the bulk of the code) appears to list all diffs twice.  So every file 
>> ends up containing two copies of everything.
>>
>> 2.  The second smaller follow up hypergrid-app.patch does not apply cleanly over hypergrid-1.patch.
>>
>> 3.  The prebuild.xml does not list dependences in the correct order.  For instance, HGOpenSimNode in 
>> OpenSim.Region.Application has a dependency on HyperGrid which is only built after this package.  You may have to do 
>> some work to resolve circular dependencies.  Please do a clean build to make sure everything resolves correctly.
>>
>> Please could you fix these issues (and the LLSD -> OSD changes) and produce a new single patch containing all the code. 
>>   I recommend simply using svn diff >my.patch from the command line on cygwin/linux/mac if Tortoise SVN is playing up. 
>> Then we can evaluate this properly.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Cristina Videira Lopes wrote:
>>   
>>> I'm glad this is getting a generally positive reaction. I believe in the 
>>> hypergrid, or something like it, strongly enough that I'm going to stick 
>>> around and do whatever necessary to see it, or something like it, go 
>>> into the box.
>>>
>>> Obviously, I agree with everything said here about revising things 
>>> properly and making sure the edges aren't too rough. I will appreciate 
>>> one or more of your 'older' ones (he!) looking carefully into it. 
>>> Generally, the hypergrid code is cleanly separated from the core code, 
>>> but let me tell you what I see as the main ugliness of this contribution:
>>>
>>> The hypergrid touches heavily on Communications and, lightly, on 
>>> Environment.Scenes. Communications isn't as well componentized as other 
>>> things are; for example, the IClientAPI is a wonderful piece of the 
>>> architecture! Unlike that, the construction code for Communications is 
>>> hard-coded in OpenSimBase. Because of that, I had to subclass OpenSim, 
>>> which is very ugly. If there's a way of making Communications a 
>>> component that can be specified in the config file, that would be great! 
>>> Not just for the hypergrid, but it would open the door for 
>>> experimentation with other alternative interoperability ideas.
>>>
>>> For the extension on Environment.Scenes, again, the Scene-related 
>>> classes are being hard-coded in OpenSimBase. If there's a way of 
>>> spec-ing that outside, it would be great.
>>>
>>> I know how to quick-fix both of these, but I think this probably needs a 
>>> solid fix from those of you who have been making the wonderful job of 
>>> componentizing opensim, rather than a quick fix from me.
>>>
>>> Crista
>>>
>>> Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>     
>>>> As much as I share that sentiment, and despite not having looked at 
>>>> the patch, it's usually a good idea to consider splitting large 
>>>> patches up into more of babysteps - 'process' over 'product' so to speak.
>>>>  
>>>> Ie, is it possible for the hypergrid posse to work with core over time 
>>>> to gradually change core into something suitable for them?
>>>>  
>>>> Most oftenly to let the code transform in steps leads to the code 
>>>> itself 'accumulating wisdom' - which leads to greated flexibility and 
>>>> encapsulation. (If it's done with proper love and care in each step) - 
>>>> and also lets core + hypergrid communicate over small chunks of code, 
>>>> instead of big whoppers. (Historically, big whoppers either rot or 
>>>> create havoc, but undesired outcomes)
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Stefan Andersson
>>>> Tribal Media AB
>>>>  
>>>> Join the 3d web revolution : http://tribalnet.se/
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 08:08:32 -0500
>>>>> From: sdague at gmail.com
>>>>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Hypergrid patch
>>>>>
>>>>> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
>>>>>         
>>>>>> Dahlia Trimble wrote:
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Thanks, that one built properly against 7364, but 7376 (head at 
>>>>>>>             
>>>> the time
>>>>       
>>>>>>> I tried) complained about some missing references to LLSD. Seems 
>>>>>>>             
>>>> a patch
>>>>       
>>>>>>> set of this size can go stale quite quickly so hopefully a few of 
>>>>>>>             
>>>> the
>>>>       
>>>>>>> other core devs can chime in real soon and give it a nod... and 
>>>>>>>             
>>>> then we
>>>>       
>>>>>>> can work together to commit it. :)
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> I think this situation was somewhat unusual with the libOMV update 
>>>>>>           
>>>> - the names of fairly fundamental classes do not
>>>>       
>>>>>> change every day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think with a large patch the submitter has to accept a certain 
>>>>>>           
>>>> amount of pain in resyncing it to the current trunk -
>>>>       
>>>>>> this in itself demonstrates how serious they (and we) are about 
>>>>>>           
>>>> supporting it. There is a need, I feel, to consider
>>>>       
>>>>>> this carefully and not rush in to a decision. This patch requires 
>>>>>>           
>>>> evaluation on both a raw technical and an
>>>>       
>>>>>> architectural level - an evaluation that I hope to start helping 
>>>>>>           
>>>> with later on today.
>>>>       
>>>>> I'm +1 for the idea, I'll defer to Justin's judgement on implementation
>>>>> here because I won't have enough time to dig through this of late.
>>>>>
>>>>> I definitely think getting hypergrid, or something like it, into core is
>>>>> a good thing. Letting opensim grids interconnect out of the box is
>>>>> something that has always been on our vision list.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Sean
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sean Dague / Neas Bade
>>>>> sdague at gmail.com
>>>>> http://dague.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
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>>   
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Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.wordpress.com