[Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger

Sun Dec 7 14:30:22 UTC 2008

Forcing things on anyone is far from my intent. Nor do I tie opensim's alpha
status to that of the repository tools in question; I only mention them in
the same sentence because the underlying community responsibilities are
similar due to their alpha status.

I simply would like to see us as a group be more embracing of these emerging
technologies, and rather than dismiss them out of hand, investigate, pursue,
and employ them, even if it's just for an occasional test. That occasional
test, and any resulting feedback, would go far toward improving these tools
to a level where we can all take advantage of their benefits.

One thing I know for certain about the opensim team is that they are
intelligent, articulate, and rigorous - and these are precisely the
qualities one hopes for in the tester when one is developing a product
that's in it's alpha stages, as it results in exceptionally high quality bug
reports.

Anyway - I wont kick this this point about any longer, it is smelling a bit
like a dead horse, as my point has been more than adequately made.

Cheers
James

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Michael Wright <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> I didn't say that any discussion should be reserved to core, I said things
> shouldn't be forced on developers just because others decide its a good
> idea.
>
> If the tools/system was more developed than I would be all for us moving to
> GIT/HG/etc. But they aren't, and by switch to them we are forcing extra
> effort on developers. People have limited time to devote to opensim. So we
> shouldn't do things that put extra strain on developers or raises the entry
> level for new developers.
>
> And again I don't buy the argument that we should use alpha tools because
> opensim is alpha. Again we advise people to not use opensim in production
> enviornments. But of course we are happy that people test it and try it out
> and use it. But for developing opensim we want to use stable, user friendly
> tools that makes development easiest.
>
> Of course its great that some opensim developers have decided to use GIT
> etc, and are helping to improve it. But we should not force it on everyone.
> So yes if any developer wants to use GIT, then thats great. But as you said
> they are already doing so. But we shouldn't be talking about it being the
> main system we use until its more developed.
>
> As for the learning curve well again what I mean is it rasies the effort
> and entry level for opensim development, which isn't a good thing. They most
> likely are way over exacturating, but comments like "if you switch to GIT,
> don't expect to get any work done with it for the first month" are common
> from people who switch to it.
>
>
> *James Stallings II <james.stallings at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Well I never meant to suggest that we should use these tools if they arent
> cross platform. I certainly did not suggest that, if they weren't, no one
> should bring the subject up. I believe I also suggested that such adoption
> needent be full-scale in the offing.
>
> What I *did* say remains true: we have an obligation to move these tools
> forward if we hope to benefit from them. And for those that can't afford the
> time to assist with moving their native clients forward, there are
> alternatives such as HomerH has just suggested.
>
> As for complaints about the learning curve? They seem a bit tedious - there
> *are* those in core who use these tools, and can and most likely will assist
> in supporting them. The individuals in question certainly dont fail to
> satisfy wrt any other requests for assistance. OpenSim has a learning curve
> that is profound, and no other single application even remotely resembling
> it is in common usage, so that curve pretty well starts at ground level.
> Philosophically speaking, It feels a bit awkward to shy away from the kind
> of effort we routinely require of others.
>
> Reserve such decisions to core as you will - it certainly hasnt seemed to
> impact the decision-making process of the other core members who have
> adopted these tools successfully, in at least one case nearly a year past.
>
> Just my *non-core* .02$L
>
> Cheers
> James
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Michael Wright <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
>
>> I think its a bit different because we are talking about toolchains that
>> we want to use in production enviorments. We always say opensim is still
>> Alpha and not ready for production level use. I think it would be very bad
>> to use alpha tools to try to develope opensim. Its just increasing the
>> problems.
>>
>> Also people jump up and down and shout loudly when something might not
>> work on Linux. So why can't people complain when things are unusable on
>> windows? I know that if the linux tools were completely unusable then
>> everyone would shout that we shouldn't even consider using them until it had
>> better cross platform support. Sorry but thats just a personal little
>> annoyance that I get from some of the things that are said/moaned about.
>>
>> But anyway I think the bigger problem for everyone is just the steep
>> learning curve that (from most feedback) those system take to even be able
>> to start using them.
>>
>> Its easy to say everyone should swap to Git/HG, but when you are the one
>> who has to use tools that just don't really work very well as a result, its
>> a different matter. So I think this is something for the core team to
>> decide.
>>
>> And at this time my vote would be certainly -1 to swapping to them.
>>
>> *James Stallings II <james.stallings at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>> Forgive me Adam, if I think this argument against Hg/GIT is a little leaky
>> ;)
>>
>> The reason I say this is that 1) we depend on 'very very very alpha code'
>> every day - in the corpus of the opensim work itself, and with the
>> employment of custom clients like hippo and meerkat. 2) if we hope to see
>> improvements in these toolchains that work to our benefit, we have an
>> obligation to adopt, test, and report, just as we ask of the broader opensim
>> community wrt the opensim project. This developement model works brilliantly
>> for us - why wouldnt we participate in it's employment for a different
>> important project?
>>
>> That being said, such an adoption needen't be simultaneously end-to-end -
>> incremental and progressive adoption by some of our more adventurous windows
>> devs might serve to inventory the trouble to be anticipated as adoption
>> progresses, perhaps filing bug reports to get showstopping issues fixed, and
>> blazing the trail forward into the more progressive and far more productive
>> workflows supported by these tools.
>>
>> I think the benefits for the community are strong, and should be examined
>> in this light, rather than dismissed because they are nacent. If we all took
>> such a position, where would opensim be now?
>>
>> Cheers!
>> James
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Frisby, Adam <adam at deepthink.com.au>wrote:
>>
>>>   I *wish* I could say that OpenSim's core dev team is getting the
>>> message about the toolchains - this is something that hobbles many
>>> innovators. Some have quietly adopted these newer toolchains for themselves,
>>> but much of the benefits of this are lost because core still sits in an SVN
>>> repo (yes, I am aware that Hg and GIT can work with SVN repos, but to do
>>> things this way rather dilutes their strengths).
>>>
>>>  *GIT/Mercurial have completely retarded clients for
>>> platforms-other-than-linux. The windows version for instance is
>>> commandline-only which does not work anywhere near as efficiently as
>>> TortoiseSVN/etc. (I am aware TortoiseHg/TortoiseGit do exist – but they are
>>> in very very very alpha stage).*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ===================================
>> The wind
>> scours the earth for prayers
>> The night obscures them
>>
>> http://osgrid.org
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>
>
> --
> ===================================
> The wind
> scours the earth for prayers
> The night obscures them
>
> http://osgrid.org
> http://del.icio.us/SPQR
> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
===================================
The wind
scours the earth for prayers
The night obscures them

http://osgrid.org
http://del.icio.us/SPQR
http://twitter.com/jstallings2
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
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