[Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
James Stallings II
james.stallings at gmail.com
Sat Dec 6 03:54:54 UTC 2008
Charles, All.
One thing I have long admired in Charles Ckrinke is an abiding sense of
loyalty. But you cant make promises on behalf of us all, any more than I or
Melanie can speak on behalf of us all.
I am very much interested in the Rexx work, but the fact is, where Mel may
be particularly wrong with respect to certain technical assumptions, she is
spot-on as regards the cross-platform issues and the closed-doors work.
We are an open community. We established this community, and they come to
us, not the other way 'round. If they wish work with the community, it means
open discussion of design and implementation, and incremental patches. It
also means a demonstrable commitment to cross-platform developement. This is
nothing more or less than we demand from every other party who contributes
code to opensim. What I dont understand is why Rexx is any different in this
respect.
Until such time as they are ready to meet us in the middle, and engage the
requirements of the community as a whole on *its terms* (not just those of
Charles Crinke or Adam Frisby) I have to pretty well say thumbs down. And
this really isnt a choice I make willingly - it's the choice I have to make
by default.
My apologies for any perceptions of negativity on my part - I simply respect
the rules we have established as a team, and I expect nothing less from any
other participant, whether they washed up on our shores yesterday, or are
founding members of the project.
Just my .02$L, for what it's worth.
Cheers
James
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Frisby, Adam <adam at deepthink.com.au> wrote:
> > Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> > and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> > breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> > would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> > to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> > developed from scratch.
>
> This actually isn't true.
>
> The login service is wholly self-contained in the modular rex DLL, there's
> no dependency on modifying OpenSim at all. (Yes, this required a lot of
> hackery initially to work, but it does.), so there's no real reason to push
> it back to OpenSim since there's no core changes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-
> > bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie
> > Sent: Friday, 5 December 2008 5:47 PM
> > To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am not opposed to Rex technology. I'm not opposed to have it in
> > OpenSim.
> > I'm also not opposed to the people who I know (like you).
> >
> > What I am opposed to is the strategy of doing Windows-only
> > development behind closed doors, without community (OpenSim dev)
> > feedback, then presenting huge patches that are so brittle that they
> > need to be applied without scrutiny or go stale.
> >
> > I would welcome Rex involvement if the Rex developers would join us
> > in -dev, discuss things, and submit small patches that we can
> > analyze and become familiar with, and modify so they don't conflict
> > with the directions where OpenSim core wants to go.
> >
> > Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> > and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> > breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> > would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> > to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> > developed from scratch.
> >
> > Also, I see anumber of abuse scenarios possible with the
> > login/avatar service (commercial abuse), which is why I personally
> > favor a different model. Specifically, to keep the avatar appearance
> > data on the client and not on any server at all.
> >
> > That is what I can write out right now, there is a diffuse feeling
> > of opposition in me, that I have yet to fathom.
> >
> > If you take it in small steps, I will be with you. Megapatches would
> > be an issue for me.
> >
> > Melanie
> >
> >
> > Ryan McDougall wrote:
> > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com> wrote:
> > >> In my opinion, nothing. Nothing, that is, that we could not get
> > >> without ReX involvement, and better.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to see OpenSim do an OpenSim solution to the mesh and
> > >> asset/inventory system. I don't feel comfortable with the ReX
> > >> solution, and even less comfortable with the parts of it they may
> > >> hold close to the chest and spring on us later. I expect some
> > >> unpalatable bits there. I would rather see us grow to that level in
> > >> a true collaborative Open Source, Free environment, without being
> > >> under the control of a single corporation.
> > >
> > > Which corporation is that? Do you know anything about legal or
> > funding
> > > structure of reX? Do you know any of us personally?
> > >
> > > Its a lot to presume with little in the way of fact.
> > >
> > > How about instead of playing games you just ask me and I'll tell you.
> > > If I had the faintest idea what your concern is I'd pre-emptively
> > tell
> > > you...
> > >
> > >> Melanie
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Diva Canto wrote:
> > >>> As Rex's extensions move closer to opensim (I'm in the group of
> > people
> > >>> who can't wait to see meshes and better graphics!), it will be good
> > to
> > >>> know more of the details of Rex. I'm not sure I understand
> > completely
> > >>> the use of "avatar" here, as we know that opensim uses it to denote
> > a
> > >>> pixelated carcass, that's neither a user nor an agent. And in Rex
> > the
> > >>> "avatar system" seems like it's more of a user storage/asset
> > system.
> > >>> Part of the user's storage/assets includes the pixelated carcass
> > for
> > >>> opensim-based worlds that care about that; but it includes all
> > other
> > >>> assets owned by the user.
> > >>>
> > >>> It would be interesting to compare existing efforts in opensim such
> > as
> > >>> the Hypergrid and the distributed asset server with Rex's avatar
> > system.
> > >>> Is it possible that
> > >>> Hypergrid+DAS >= Rex's Avatar System ?
> > >>> What else does the avatar system bring to the table?
> > >>>
> > >>> Crista
> > >>>
> > >>> Ryan McDougall wrote:
> > >>>> Thank you for your addition to the discussion James, however I
> > think
> > >>>> Paul may have misunderstood reX architecture when made a private
> > >>>> discussion public without consent.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The reX avatar and authentication servers replace the User server
> > and
> > >>>> split it into Avatar storage for reX's own avatar system, and pure
> > >>>> authentication of identity (the latter a bit like OpenID). The
> > idea is
> > >>>> to enable avatar portability: the ability to take the same
> > >>>> meticulously created reX avatar from one grid to another.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Afaik there is no analogue for stock OpenSim, and thus its
> > difficult
> > >>>> to merge until the reX team is better integrated with OpenSim.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Moreover I see room for improvement there, and have some ideas to
> > >>>> change it further. It would be better for all parties if we did
> > our
> > >>>> prototyping first, and then worry about arguing who has the better
> > >>>> concept or code later and the discussion is on objective ground.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, James Stallings II
> > >>>> <james.stallings at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> LOL an ESPECIALLY good idea given they are the originators of the
> > project
> > >>>>> and maintainers of the core offering :D
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Cheers
> > >>>>> James
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Jani Pirkola
> > <jpirkola at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Paul,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Good idea to involve Opensim-dev, since they might have better
> > ideas. I
> > >>>>>> suppose Adam Frisby has already thought how or if to integrate
> > avatar
> > >>>>>> storage to Opensim.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> One reason for avatar appearance (or agent domain) handling
> > being at the
> > >>>>>> same place with the opensim is because in SL this was so. When
> > we move
> > >>>>>> towards free 3D Internet (free as libre), then we need to be
> > able to take
> > >>>>>> our avatar with us from grid to grid. This means that a grid
> > must accept
> > >>>>>> foreign agent domains - and eventually someone would like to run
> > just the
> > >>>>>> avatar service.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>> Jani
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <metaphorz at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am resending this since i think I sent a message from the
> > wrong
> > >>>>>>> email account...
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ..........
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Jani
> > >>>>>>> I confess to not knowing the details of the rex viewer source,
> > so please
> > >>>>>>> take
> > >>>>>>> my comments in that light. However, to me, it would seem more
> > logical to
> > >>>>>>> evolve the already existing UGAIM+R services of OpenSim rather
> > than
> > >>>>>>> inventing a separate way of handling region and user services.
> > I feel
> > >>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>> we may need more discussion with the opensim developers (which
> > is
> > >>>>>>> why I am cc'ing them). If I am missing something in the logic
> > of your
> > >>>>>>> revised
> > >>>>>>> Rex viewer implementation strategy, please let me know, and
> > thank your
> > >>>>>>> team again for its excellent viewer capabilities.
> > >>>>>>> In summary, if there is something about the way that opensim
> > handles
> > >>>>>>> avatars or authentication, then suggest fixes to this via
> > opensim-dev.
> > >>>>>>> Yes?
> > >>>>>>> If the DB schema(s) need to change, then suggest changes or add
> > new
> > >>>>>>> tables.
> > >>>>>>> -paul
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Jani Pirkola wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Exactly, that is what we will do. However some of the services
> > need to
> > >>>>>>>> be able to run separately from the region or opensim server.
> > The best
> > >>>>>>>> example of this is the avatar storage and user authentication,
> > which we feel
> > >>>>>>>> needs to be its own entity.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Jani
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Presumably, the "services" aspect can be worked out as a
> > region
> > >>>>>>>> module
> > >>>>>>>> for opensim? Either that, or the rex team would work with
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> opensim
> > >>>>>>>> team on the opensim trunk to extend its service
> > capabilities to be
> > >>>>>>>> more
> > >>>>>>>> consistent with rexviewer. That way, developers or users
> > are free
> > >>>>>>>> to update or
> > >>>>>>>> re-build opensim whenever it suits them, and rexviewer
> > would still
> > >>>>>>>> function.
> > >>>>>>>> -p
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Antti Ilomäki wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Actually that's not exactly the case, viewer
> > modifications are
> > >>>>>>>> important to us, but the avatar portability service
> > (and
> > >>>>>>>> participating
> > >>>>>>>> in world server development as well) is another
> > central feature
> > >>>>>>>> we
> > >>>>>>>> have. Our system currently allows full avatar
> > portability
> > >>>>>>>> between
> > >>>>>>>> different worlds and even the inventory works, at
> > least to an
> > >>>>>>>> extent.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I could be wrong, but i thought the point was to
> > make Rex
> > >>>>>>>> purely
> > >>>>>>>> a visual client (viewer) and to let OpenSim handle
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> services?
> > >>>>>>>> -paul
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> -- Dr. Paul A. Fishwick E-Mail:
> > fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> Dept. of Computer & Info Phone & FAX: (352) 392-1414
> > >>>>>>>> Science and Engineering WWW:
> > >>>>>>>> http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick<http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > >>>>>>>> <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > >>>>>>>> University of Florida (PGP Key available at above
> > WWW
> > >>>>>>>> address)
> > >>>>>>>> P. O. Box 116120
> > >>>>>>>> 332 Bldg. CSE, Gainesville, FL 32611-6120
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > >>>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> > >>>>>>>
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> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> ===================================
> > >>>>> The wind
> > >>>>> scours the earth for prayers
> > >>>>> The night obscures them
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://osgrid.org
> > >>>>> http://del.icio.us/SPQR
> > >>>>> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> > >>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
> > >>>>>
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--
===================================
The wind
scours the earth for prayers
The night obscures them
http://osgrid.org
http://del.icio.us/SPQR
http://twitter.com/jstallings2
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
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