[Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

Thu Apr 10 23:40:09 UTC 2008

Can't wait to see that integrated with OpenSim!

I like your viewer a lot,  but do you think there is a way of restructuring
this so that it can be used with the regular LL viewer? Why does this need
your viewer at all? Is it because the login process requires additional
cooperation from the client? I mean, I understand that the more fancy avatar
appearance that you have requires changes in the viewer, but I don't see why
the inter-grid TPs require a different viewer. Isn't there a way of
separating the inter-grid TPs from the avatar appearance? Could you explain
that?

Crista / Diva

From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Jani Pirkola
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:29 PM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

Hi,

1)      Will VeriSign or Yahoo - or whomever - be able to set up these kinds
of account services?

Yes that is right. 

2)      Does it work more or less the way I described my usage scenario?
That is, will I be able to go from OSGrid to the public IBM grid under
crista at verisignvw.com, assuming both grids accept verisignvw accounts?

yes just like that. You get also possibility to change your account in the
teleporting process in case you know that another grid is not accepting your
example crista at verisignvw.com account (actually this happens if you teleport
to Second Life). 

3)      Does this require the use of the realXtend viewer or can this be
used with the standard LL viewer?

Currently only realXtend viewer can be used, but I wish that in the future
there will be more support for this architecture. We maintain the realXtend
viewer so that it can be used to access also SL servers or standard OpenSim.
The avatar appearance from avatar storage can only be seen by others on
realXtend servers. The architecture needs support from both server and
client. 

Jani

Crista / Diva

From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Jani Pirkola
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:20 PM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar

Hi,

Some comments how realXend has implemented things:

2008/4/10, Michael Wright <michaelwri22 at yahoo.co.uk>:

I haven't been able to find too much on how the RealXtend avatar system is
really going to work. And while in some ways I think its a step in the right
direction,  it also seems to limit a lot of things. I'm not so sure you
should alway have the same avatar for everything. Or should completely cut
the "region servers" out of the whole process. If I teleport to a region
that has a role playing game, maybe my avatar should automatically change
(at least clothes, but maybe body as well) to fit into that game. So the
region has to be able to have some say over the avatar. 

The current realXtend login process gives a control point for region servers
as well. When a user logs in to a region, the viewer sends URL to user's
avatar storage. The region then sends that URL t other viewers so that other
user's can see each other's avatars. It is possible that in e.g. a strict
role playing world, the region uses it's own avatar storage which stores a
special avatar for just that user. Then the region server sends URL to that
avatar storage instead of the one that viewer sent to the region. If we want
to get really smart here, it would be also possible to combine something
from the user's regular avatar to the role playing game avatar to achieve
nice results... e.g. using face form from user's regular avatar but
otherwise using region specific body and clothes. 

I have the same sort of thoughts about inventory. While it should not be
centralised, the regions do need to be able to (with permission) do certain
things, like maybe a region gives you a extra set of folders for use in that
region, but they disappear when you leave it. I am also not sure there
should be just one inventory set for each user. Why not a number of sub sets
that can be combined etc. Maybe the region could restrict access to only a
certain set, which might be a set that it provides, when in that region; no
space ships when in that serious business region.. Inventory really needs to
swap to a more url based system. 

We are just thinking how to build all this in realXtend. Currently we have
thought that each user will have a region specific inventory and a personal
inventory. The personal inventory is stored at avatar storage so it will
travel with the avatar. 

Also we need to remember not everything will be interconnected. There will
be some applications (or possible grids) that want to be separate from
everything else. 

So I don't think we should be forcing any centralised system on people. And
yes from what I've read, I actually think the realxtend avatar system sounds
too centralised, but that could be because I don't know enough details of
what is planned. I'm not saying its wrong, it just doesn't fit all possible
uses. So we need things to at least be modular. 

Currently realXtend components have been designed so that there are no
centralized control points, it would be really a bad planning to build such
an architecture on that kind of centralized assumptions. In realXtend
architecture, everyone can set up their own avatar storages and user
authentication services and decide to trust or not to other user's
authentication services. 
If a virtual world hosting company wants to make a completely walled garden
solution with realXtend, that is also possible. They can set up their own
avatar authentication and storage and trust no-one else's authentication
server (there is a basic allow/deny setting for this). 

Having said all that, of course I think a lot of people and applications
will want to have shared resources like these. Just we have to be careful in
how they are implemented. And for opensim at least, that should be a open
process/design that everyone can be part of. 

A team of people almost always reaches better solutions over individual. All
the different use cases should be covered in a great care. I hope that
realXtend initiative with the distributed avatar architecture is being
refined with the OpenSim community involvement. I am sure that there are
still many things that need addressing. The realXtend code is available at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/ and as I mentioned in my
earlier mail, we will have a new version, which is based on current OpenSim,
soon available.

Best regards,
Jani Pirkola
realXtend program manager

Sean Dague <sean at dague.net> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 08:50:33AM -0700, Diva Canto wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> What happened to realXtend's "avatar system"? Is it being integrated 
> with OpenSim?

Short answers. I don't know, and no. The process for code coming into
OpenSim is to put a patch in mantis. I haven't seen any proposed
patches in this area in mantis.

> From where I stand, that, or something like that, is a major 
> architectural requirement for virtual worlds to get serious. Without the 
> ability for people to get an identity+inventory that they can port 
> around through different organization's grids, this is not going to be 
> that useful. I see a lot of interest from organizations to set up their 
> own virtual worlds under their control (so, their own grid'ed regions), 
> but if people have to get accounts with them to visit, this is just not 
> going to work for serious usages - period.

Hence you've created the paradox. :)

* We want everything connected
* We don't want to trust a single authoritative source for info
(otherwise you'd be on Second Life)

Honestly, this is a hard problem to solve, and one that seems a bit
beyond the current scope. That being said, implementations and research
in this area which work with OpenSim are always welcomed.

> I understand there's a ton of stability work to be done, but this 
> particular architectural decision is really important, even 
> (especially?) at this early stage; we all trust stability will happen 
> over time.
> Is there anything that I can do to boost the efforts in that direction, 
> besides sending this email?

Sample peer based User services that allow cross talk would be useful.
The moral equivalent of OpenID for virtual worlds (because you need more
than just what openid provides).

-Sean

-- 
__________________________________________________________________

Sean Dague Mid-Hudson Valley
sean at dague dot net Linux Users Group
http://dague.net http://mhvlug.org

There is no silver bullet. Plus, werewolves make better neighbors
than zombies, and they tend to keep the vampire population down.
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