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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">i cant stay out :<br>
Comment about IAR, grid admins can already implement soem function
so users could upload IAR files themself into the grid.<br>
You can do that with the remote admin "console" command and some
own written webpage code. So theoretical you dont need any tool
at all.<br>
The only rem,aining part is how to get the IAR files. well the
only safe way am seeing for people that want to give things away
for free is to make <br>
a website so people can download there the IAR file what the then
later can upload with the grid build IAR upload page. In my eyes
is this still the <br>
most safe option because people need to put there IAR's on
webpage. so its clear the are for use on other grids. also you can
add comments on the webpage to.<br>
<br>
Its a bad idea central storage where assets from different grids
are stored, the creator lose compleet track of what happens. thats
anyway a problem.<br>
Sofar i have read this whole thread, Hypergrid is more safe.<br>
<br>
richard<br>
<br>
<br>
On 18-Nov-12 20:31, Fleep Tuque wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAG6z+U5o2wp2-DOAC6scQdW0_uv3VHTRdeUVXVWAKn5dQe=q5Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Regarding legitimate use cases: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be a perfectly legitimate use for someone to
download any and all content they have received on FleepGrid and
then import that content into any other grid. Every item
available to another user via $0 sale or "take a copy" on my
grid is CC licensed for such use (to the best of my knowledge)
and there would be nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about
it. In fact, I encourage it!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Likewise, it would be a perfectly legitimate use for someone
to download all 500+ items I have created and listed on the
FleepGrid webshop, which are primarily in IAR format, and then
upload those items to any other grid. Right now, as far as I
know, the only way to do that is through console access, which
means only grid owners can really use the items I put on the
web, not end users. That's due to a technical limitation of
existing tools, not my intent. My intent is for anyone to be
able to use them. If I understand Snowcrash's description
correctly, his tool would make that possible for any end user of
a grid, which in fact would not only be a legitimate use of the
tool, but a wonderful and extremely helpful addition for those
of us who opensource our content and make it available in IAR
format for transport.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but those are
legitimate uses. To say there is NO legitimate use of such a
tool is simply not true. What is true is that there could be
both legitimate and illegitimate uses. And I agree Snowcrash
and any other developers should do their very best to safeguard
against that where possible. But you can't argue that no
legitimate use case exists because I've just given several. My
desire to create content and share it freely with whoever wants
to use it is as legitimate as any other content creator's
desires, and ditto for any law-abiding end user who wishes to
use that content in an easy, convenient, legal way.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the concept of "my inventory" (lowercase):</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Snowcrash that the concept of "my inventory" is
the mental construct that the vast majority of virtual world
users have. Once I have personally verified the license of an
opensource item and have gained access to it (currently by
downloading the IAR or XML file to my local computer), then I
consider that file to be "mine" (or my licensed copy if you
prefer) to use as I wish, on any grid I wish. The creator said
I could. Great! Except the ability to actually use that item
on any grid I wish requires me to upload it over and over each
time I go to a new grid. And for IAR items, the only portable
format that fully preserves an item, I can only upload it if I
have console access to the simulator - which of course I do not
have access to on any grids but my own. That is not an ideal
situation at all. I have an inventory of stuff that is mine to
use, my inventory, but using it on every grid I visit is at the
moment an exceedingly cumbersome process at best, and maybe not
even possible at all unless I have console access.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A tool that would allow me to upload all the legally licensed
XML and IAR files I am currently storing on my local computer to
a third party service, that would hold those files for me, and
then magically import them into any grid I visit without me
having to manually do it item by item myself would be a godsend
- and perfectly legal, legitimate, ethical, and proper. I know
every XML and IAR file on my local computer is licensed for such
use and I would use such a tool with no hesitation at all, and
would probably want to kiss the developer who made it because it
would save me an enormous amount of time and effort. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding third party inventory services:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So let's say 20 reputable opensource content creators got
together and decided to pool our resources to make a repository
of content available, and we each had 500 items to contribute.
Think Linda Kellie, who has the most open permissions of any
Opensim creator I know, or Vanish Seriath of Opensim Creations,
etc. So now we have a repository of 10,000 items that are
legally licensed from trusted sources that can be used on any
grid. Would you really argue the ideal situation is that each
user should manually download each item from that repository and
then each user should manually upload each item to each and
every grid every time they want to use something from it?
Surely not, that's crazy. But that's pretty much the current
situation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The ideal situation would be to have my inventory of legally
licensed freebie and purchased content (if it was licensed for
such use) hosted not on each grid, but somewhere else, and
accessible to me no matter what grid I travel to without me
having to do any uploading at all. When I log on to a grid, some
established protocol talks to my inventory (or inventories, I
can imagine multiple services/sources), displays it as a folder
when I open my inventory in the GUI, and makes a local copy of
an item only when I rez it out into the world, or wear it, or
whatever. Or something like that. For freebie licensed
content, perhaps grids subscribe to the third party inventory
repository and provide it as a folder in the library for every
user of their grid, or.. I dunno! I can imagine many
permutations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not a developer, so I don't fully understand all the
mechanisms and protocols that exist or could exist to make that
kind of functionality possible. But in general, it seems like
Snowcrash's tool is trying to implement some version of that
concept, and I for one am very interested in seeing how it might
be implemented in a legal and ethical way. It would solve what I
view as one of the biggest obstacles to Opensim adoption - lack
of easy availability and portability of known, legally licensed,
trusted content.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding opensource content creators and the need for better
mechanisms to share opensource content: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think Linda, Vanish, and I might be three largest web-based
opensource content providers at the moment, but there may be
more that I don't know about. I obviously can't speak for them,
but for myself, I spend an _enormous_ amount of time, energy,
and what amateur skill I possess not just making items for the
community, but countless additional hours packaging them up,
indexing them, loading them onto a website, and doing my best to
make it easy for people to actually port them wherever they want
and _use_ them. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since I am not a coder or a programmer, I unfortunately can't
contribute to the development of the Opensim code itself.
Creating openly licensed content represents my attempt to
contribute to the Opensim community in another way. Which is
why it is quite sad to me that for all the countless hours of
effort I've dedicated to making these resources available to
people, in the hopes of making a significant positive
contribution to the Opensim community, the current technical
limitations prevents the vast majority of end users from being
able to use my content at all! </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If Snowcrash is trying to resolve that problem, I am behind
that effort 100%, even if I share everyone's concerns about
illegitimate uses and the need to protect others rights, and
sincerely hope that those issues and concerns can be addressed,
too. But I can't agree there's no legitimate need or use for a
tool such as this - from my perspective, there is in fact a
great need for it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>. . .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do apologize, both for the tl;dr length of this post and
because I've posted an awful lot in this thread, far more than I
usually do. Clearly I feel passionately about the topic. Maybe
I'll try to take a backseat for a bit to make sure I'm not
drowning out other voices and to think more about all of the
possible implications of a tool with this functionality. And
while, for the purposes of this discussion, I am taking a strong
position on the potential benefits for opensource creators and
law-abiding end users, I hope it's clear that I genuinely
understand, respect, and agree with many of the concerns that
have been raised as well. I want all content creators' and grid
owners' rights to be respected, not just my own.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sincerely, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Chris/Fleep</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Teravus
Ovares <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:teravus@gmail.com" target="_blank">teravus@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Just one thing to add, since you have yet to respond to
my requests.</div>
<div class="im">
<div> </div>
<div>" so now releasing a legitimate tool is the same as
performing wholesale theft"</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>No, but developing and releasing a tool that has no
legitimate uses IS Illegal. Again, I say, Legitimate as
in, a use that doesn't breach a contract or violate someone
else's rights. Don't stand on your high horse Snowcrash,
you're very wrong if you think that what you're doing is
legal.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Comparing your tool to bittorrent is like comparing
apples to oranges. Bittorrent is for distributing content
that you have copyright of. Your tool is for distributing
content that you /don't/ have copyright on. So, lets say,
'backing up' is fair use. Ok... but when you go to
upload it somewhere.. you're violating the terms of service
for that new place because you do not have the copyright to
upload it... and tosses DO say that you must have the
copyright or have permission to upload copyrighted content
from the copyright holder. So, again.. It HAS NO
LEGITIMATE USES.. it is illegal.</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div> </div>
<div>Teravus</div>
</font></span>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 12:26 PM,
Snowcrash Short <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:snowcrash.short@gmail.com"
target="_blank">snowcrash.short@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Melanie <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com"
target="_blank">melanie@t-data.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
Hi,<br>
<div><br>
On 18/11/2012 17:14, Snowcrash Short wrote:<br>
> I fail completely to see how this tool
can be a threat, let alone to a<br>
> hobbyist running a small grid. If content
creators labor under the wrong<br>
> impression that this tool is like
copy-bot, then I could see why some<br>
> content creators might see this as a
problem.<br>
><br>
<br>
</div>
This tool is PRECISELY like Copybot. It allows
by default to export<br>
items that the creator has not permitted export
for and has not<br>
expected that export would be easily possible.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>Actually it isn't, copybot - as you can see
from the links I have provided - is designed to
copy any view-able content, i.e. if it is present
in the region, copybot enables you to copy that
item. Oddly enough, that is far simpler to do than
backing up contents in a users inventory. The
complete functionality for copying contents in a
region - alá copybot - is actually already
implemented in libomv, so will you ban every use
of libomv as well?.</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
This tool does indeed permit users to commit
illegal acts by<br>
default. Depending on the jurisdiction, download
and/or upload are<br>
limited by law unless explicitly permitted.
Where limited by a TOS,<br>
it is illegal practically everywhere.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>Nope, as a licensee I am per default allowed to
use the licensed material in any way I see fit, as
long as I do not violate the copyright of the
copyright holder. This includes backing up,
migrating to other media, and modifying for
personal use. Said rights are available to me,
unless I have entered into an agreement with the
copyright holder not to do so.</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<br>
I do see the fundamental disagreement between
the community and<br>
yourself - the community stands firmly behind
the concept of<br>
intellectual property and itemwise sale while
you appear to believe<br>
that digital items are mostly unowned and
available to everyone to<br>
be used as they see fit.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>Where have I at any point rejected the concept
of intellectual property? or claimed that the
licensees are unrestricted in their uses? never!,
you are claims are even beyond misrepresenting
what I have said.</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Please take a moment to consider - digital items
_are_ property.<br>
They belong to someone and that someone is not
the owner of the<br>
inventory. It's the creator.</blockquote>
</div>
<div>And the license grant purchased from the
copyright holder is property too! </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote"> A tool like this has the
potential to<br>
cause commercial creators to shun OpenSim
completely and withdraw<br>
into SL, leaving the OpenSim based worlds at the
quality level of<br>
freebies. For many of us, that quality level is
not sufficient. This<br>
is why closed grids and content protection
exist.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>And which is why I have offered to enable
protection to those grids by implementing either
the same policy as governs LL's grids or any other
policy which can feasibly be implemented.</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Bringing inventory only while logged in doesn't
work on a technical<br>
basis either. Assets must be present on the grid
for viewing even<br>
after the user leaves.</blockquote>
</div>
<div>Only assets rez'ed and left by the user needs
to remain, they do not need to be stored in any
inventory, since they are visible in the region,
as such there is no real technical need for a huge
asset server held by the grid </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote"> The only thing that would
be feasible to<br>
transport with the avatar is clothing items and
that concept has<br>
been discussed by Diva and myself years ago. The
issue then was that<br>
the viewer was still GPL and off limits, so the
viewer changes for<br>
that feature were considered out of reach.
However, that would still<br>
not allow purchased items to travel with the
user.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>Are you too fine to touch GPL code? Admittedly
the build process of the viewer is quite
intricate, but the source is out there. Besides,
who says that the URL returned in response for a
CAPS request needs to reside on the server
responding to the CAPS request?</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Creators have the expectation that the grid they
upload their items<br>
to protects their IP rights. They don't expect
the user to be aware<br>
of the law or follow it - they expect the grids
to do that with<br>
their TOS and their legal teams.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>If that was the case, I pity the hobbiest grid
operators, because putting the onus of protecting
content creators assets on individual grid
operators is leaving them wide open to
litigation! </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<br>
SecondInventory has respected this by
disallowing the download of<br>
items the user has not created. They made that
impossible to change<br>
by keeping their tool closed source. Their tool
has become the<br>
accepted means of moving creations between
worlds.<br>
<br>
As open source, your tool can be trivially
modified by the less<br>
morally inclined. I would expect the community
to shun your too like<br>
copybot is shunned. I would expect the
reputation of copies of your<br>
tool that have been illegally modified to
reflect on the original,<br>
unmodified tool and thereby cause grids, over
time, to detect and<br>
ban the use of any tool descended from it, ban
the users using it<br>
and confiscate inventories from these users. Is
it really your<br>
desire to become the author of super copybot?<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>You seem to have great respect for my coding
skills "super copybot", the source code for
everything is already out there, all I have done
is combine what already exists and wrap it in a
user interface.</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Your standard response of "closed source is
security by obscurity"<br>
doesn't wash either. If there were a tool out
there that is easy to<br>
use and allows trivially copying complete items
on a large scale and<br>
that tool were just hard to find, I'd have to
agree. However, there<br>
is no such tool. </blockquote>
</div>
<div>Yes there is, libomv, backup command line
tool! </div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
All existing tools are complex or broken, often<br>
both. Releasing your tool as open source can be
extremely harmful to<br>
the continuum of grids commonly known as the
"metaverse".<br>
<br>
A significant portion of the metaverse relies on
commerce and<br>
commerce cannot be sustained in the presence of
wholesale theft.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>great piece of demagoguery, are you by any
chance rhetorically trained? so now releasing a
legitimate tool is the same as performing
wholesale theft?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since you are going beyond
misrepresentation and resorting to demagoguery I
can only surmise that you still oppose the tool
but lack additional rational arguments against it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
Best regards</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div>Snowcrash</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
- Melanie<br>
</font></span>
<div>
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