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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=NO-BOK link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Edit: Ok, I’m in the funny corner today. No serious punt intended (really!). Just finished a big delivery; happy - happy - happy. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>*rants some response including paranoia, far out, twisted world view, lack of logical reasoning, feet not planted and border lining trolling* *then hides*<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>IF this was all the information then would any of this *<b>really</b>* be an issue?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I mean, does anyone honestly believe that Microsoft will pull .Net off the market suddenly? Or is this, as usual, the ranting of *nix-trolls (actually: Linux-trolls)?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If they did, would this affect OpenSim so much that everyone dies?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Can someone fork Mono?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Can someone write a C#->PERL converter?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Can PERL contain the same patented code as in .Net?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Can OpenSim be run on Windows?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Will the old versions of stuff still run?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you can answer yes to one of these questions you may be suffering from reality.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Oh, and that one doc contains a link to this: <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx">http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dunno if that makes the professor happy?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Br,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tedd<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>lamont cranston<br><b>Sent:</b> 14. oktober 2010 12:43<br><b>To:</b> opensim-users@lists.berlios.de<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-users] re-why not a real OS?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I was just clarifying my earlier statements.<br><br>1.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Mono is backed by Microsoft - That is the basic problem. They have a fiduciary responsibility to stockholders that is in opposition to providing a seamless migration off of their product.<br>2.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>.Net is open source -</span><span lang=EN-US> </span><a href="http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2010/07/richard-stallman-on-net-mono-and-dotgnu"><span lang=EN-US>http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2010/07/richard-stallman-on-net-mono-and-dotgnu</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br>/index.htm " 'open specification promise' is not something we can rely on"</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><em><span lang=EN-US>Eben Moglen</span></em><span lang=EN-US>, Professor of Law, Columbia Law School<br>I would suggest that a Columbia Law School Professor's opinion has a bit more weight than a layman's.<br></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>3. no need for sarcasm, your link is quite believable, as it says. "commercially reasonable terms and conditions" which are very specifically not free software.<br>4. is simply assertions<br>5. yes, you are correct. OpenSim has gone far down a road that may well be a dead end. <br>6. "better" is a fuzzy term. Is a closed source OS better for an application builder? depends on the metric. <br> Is one OS better than another? that quickly becomes "specmanship" with each side asserting that a given specification is critical. I'd point to OS on the list of fastest super computers, and you'd point to installed desktops (I am a fan of Microsoft's office suite) <br></span><span lang=EN-US><br><br>none of this is relevant to my earlier statement - <br>Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers. <br>The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.<br>in conclusion;<br>if Opensim is to be used for education, then would a closed or open OS be more appropriate?<br><br>(appropriate != better)<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Tedd Hansen <</span><a href="mailto:tedd@konge.net"><span lang=EN-US>tedd@konge.net</span></a><span lang=EN-US>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Religion wars!!! :D</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>1.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Mono is backed by Microsoft: </span><a href="http://techrights.org/2008/08/20/microsoft-suse-coupons/" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://techrights.org/2008/08/20/microsoft-suse-coupons/</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> (I won’t bother searching for more sources for this one)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>2.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>.Net is open source: </span><a href="http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2008/01/16/net-framework-library-source-code-now-available.aspx" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2008/01/16/net-framework-library-source-code-now-available.aspx</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>3.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>C# and CLI are ECMA standards: </span><a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> / </span><a href="http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> / </span><a href="http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br><sarcasm>Oh my God, what is this? IT HAS TO BE FAKE!!!</sarcasm> </span><a href="http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma%20PATENT/ECMA-334%20&%20335/ECMA-335%204th%20Edition%20patent%20statements.pdf" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma%20PATENT/ECMA-334%20&%20335/ECMA-335%204th%20Edition%20patent%20statements.pdf</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>4.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Most/all improvements to .Net the last few years has been additions. OpenSim has no problem waiting 6-12 months for Mono to catch up before using the additions, because none of these new features are critical. So yes, words can be used to argument on this point – but the reality is that it doesn’t matter if Mono is playing catch-up. If anything the developers have time to learn the new technology before implementing them resulting in increased code quality in OpenSim.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>And then we come to #5:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Unless someone are willing to rewrite OpenSim in another language which suits their taste better I think this conversation thread may have a relatively high probability of being of that popular culture metaphorical dead end that we sometimes hear about.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Now for OS: Now I won’t detail the kernels of Win vs Lin, but I can point out that anyone who says that either is better is basically an ignorant fool / troll / at the peak of Dunning-Kruger (pick one or more).</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Br,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Tedd </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><a href="mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'> [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>lamont cranston<br><b>Sent:</b> 14. oktober 2010 10:41<br><b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:opensim-users@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>opensim-users@lists.berlios.de</span></a><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-users] re-why not a real OS?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>I would point out that I did give a helpful link to the the original question (Drupal does run on Windows, my link was to their page)<br><br>My use of the word "real" is because Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers. <br>The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.<br>You don't need source code to break an operating system - Microsoft has demonstrated that beyond debate.<br>You do need source code to fix it. <br><br><br>looking at James comment <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US><br>1. Pick your application<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>2. Pick the language that best implements it<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>3. Pick the best operating system that supports it (natively is to be preferred)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>4. pick the hardware that runs that operating system<br><br>OpenSim is being tied to Windows due to the use of .net (I agree with James parenthetical statement)<br>Mono is open, but it is a potential landmine of patent liability, which is why it has been dropped from Fedora/Red Hat.<br>That loss of userbase/mindshare impacts on the development of Mono. <br><br>I'm pleased to hear that the garbage collection is being improved, but by design, Mono is locked into playing catch up against .net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>As a result, the roadmap of a critical component belongs to a company that has their own agenda, and it may not support your project<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Having an open project dependent on a closed OS introduces a point of failure, outside of the developers control.<br><br>Suggesting nefarious scheming on the part of Microsoft is not unreasonable, given the company's history - from the days of the DR-DOS lawsuit to the theft of code from Plurk and the whole fuss over stolen XML code in their office suite back at the begining of this year. If Mono is an intentional landmine this project would be among the casualties, not even noticed in the larger scheme of things.<br><br><br>On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ric Moore <</span><a href="mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>wayward4now@gmail.com</span></a><span lang=EN-US>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US>On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:<br>> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:<br>><br>> Linux is good,<br>> Windows is bad.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and<br>I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free<br>to use whatever blows up their dress.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><br>> That's all.<br>><br>> Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for<br>> years now.<br>> If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to<br>> decide which<br>> operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead<br>> you to a linux/unix/solaris<br>> installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows<br>> installation.<br>> Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an<br>> xserve installation<br>> or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).<br>><br>> Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'<br>> OpenSim<br>> installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as<br>> the other.<br>><br>> Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks<br>> more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.<br>> But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to<br>> pay license fees, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>In Red Hat's case, as I used to work there, you're paying for the<br>service per license but never for the software. Bob Young hired me back<br>when, mostly to be the Goat amongst his 20 somethings Thoroughbreds, not<br>because I was a coder whizbang propeller head. If you don't need the<br>service, then CentOS can be installed for free. Again, that's bare<br>knucks, but makes for one tough server.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><br>> Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,<br>> size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>I most certainly concur with that. I'd give anything to tap the Sprint<br>fiber optic cable that runs through our front yard, it's a major route<br>on the net's backbone. When I asked how much to connect, I got an<br>offhand "several grand a month ...or so". It goes from DC to Blackstone<br>VA down to Duke and UNC in North Carolina. Sweet. Probably the same line<br>that MS and Apple are tied into. Ric<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US><br><br><br>--<br>My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:<br>"There are two Great Sins in the world...<br>..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.<br>Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.<br>Linux user# 44256<br><br>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Opensim-users mailing list<br></span><a href="mailto:Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br></span><a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><br>_______________________________________________<br>Opensim-users mailing list<br></span><a href="mailto:Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de"><span lang=EN-US>Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br></span><a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><br><br clear=all><br></span>-- <br>(\__/)<br>(='.'=)<br>(")_(")<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>