[Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts

[Melanie]

Hi Fleep,

what you outline below (and I did read all of it) is very much
possible. In fact, support for this could be done with existing
viewer technology through an OpenSim region module, seamlessly. It
is an interesting concept that will be taken into consideration.
After all, the number you gave indicate that there is sufficient
material to make this worth while.

Meanwhile, SC's tool can perform part of this and there is really no
objection against the tools as it is designed.

Objections are against some part of SC's plans:

- Making security opt-in - that means everyone who isn't on their
toes right now, before the initial release, faces being robbed blind.

- Releasing it open source - that means that less moral people can
change it to remove the safeguards it does have - it will happen,
these people are out there, sadly.

In an ideal world, these would be non issues. In an ideal world,
people would not modify the tool to be able to violate the law. In
an ideal world, all users would diligently verify licenses and
respect all licenses and laws.

We don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world that has a few
idealists, lots of opportunists and a few black hats. The vast
majority of people are law abiding people, but the opportunists are
the ones we are concerned with.

These opportunists will break the law if given an easy way to do so.
The black hats would use this tool and modify it and give it to the
opportunists. The infringing will be done by them and then
infringing content will be offered for sale in ways that make a law
abiding grid user unable to determine the nature of the item and
it's pedigree. They will buy it and the opportunist makes money.

Everyone is happy. Everyone? No. The creator isn't.

That is the point. The community is not against free access to
openly licensed items and neither am I. I do have commercial
creators to protect and I see that job become incredibly more
difficult with this out as open source.

- Melanie

On 18/11/2012 20:31, Fleep Tuque wrote:
> Regarding legitimate use cases:
> 
> It would be a perfectly legitimate use for someone to download any and all
> content they have received on FleepGrid and then import that content into
> any other grid.  Every item available to another user via $0 sale or "take
> a copy" on my grid is CC licensed for such use (to the best of my
> knowledge) and there would be nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about
> it.  In fact, I encourage it!
> 
> Likewise, it would be a perfectly legitimate use for someone to download
> all 500+ items I have created and listed on the FleepGrid webshop, which
> are primarily in IAR format, and then upload those items to any other grid.
>  Right now, as far as I know, the only way to do that is through console
> access, which means only grid owners can really use the items I put on the
> web, not end users.  That's due to a technical limitation of existing
> tools, not my intent.  My intent is for anyone to be able to use them.  If
> I understand Snowcrash's description correctly, his tool would make that
> possible for any end user of a grid, which in fact would not only be a
> legitimate use of the tool, but a wonderful and extremely helpful addition
> for those of us who opensource our content and make it available in IAR
> format for transport.
> 
> I really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but those are legitimate uses.
>  To say there is NO legitimate use of such a tool is simply not true.  What
> is true is that there could be both legitimate and illegitimate uses.  And
> I agree Snowcrash and any other developers should do their very best to
> safeguard against that where possible.  But you can't argue that no
> legitimate use case exists because I've just given several.  My desire to
> create content and share it freely with whoever wants to use it is as
> legitimate as any other content creator's desires, and ditto for any
> law-abiding end user who wishes to use that content in an easy, convenient,
> legal way.
> 
> 
> Regarding the concept of "my inventory" (lowercase):
> 
> I agree with Snowcrash that the concept of "my inventory" is the mental
> construct that the vast majority of virtual world users have. Once I have
> personally verified the license of an opensource item and have gained
> access to it (currently by downloading the IAR or XML file to my local
> computer), then I consider that file to be "mine" (or my licensed copy if
> you prefer) to use as I wish, on any grid I wish.  The creator said I
> could.  Great!  Except the ability to actually use that item on any grid I
> wish requires me to upload it over and over each time I go to a new grid.
>  And for IAR items, the only portable format that fully preserves an item,
> I can only upload it if I have console access to the simulator - which of
> course I do not have access to on any grids but my own.  That is not an
> ideal situation at all.  I have an inventory of stuff that is mine to use,
> my inventory, but using it on every grid I visit is at the moment an
> exceedingly cumbersome process at best, and maybe not even possible at all
> unless I have console access.
> 
> A tool that would allow me to upload all the legally licensed XML and IAR
> files I am currently storing on my local computer to a third party service,
> that would hold those files for me, and then magically import them into any
> grid I visit without me having to manually do it item by item myself would
> be a godsend - and perfectly legal, legitimate, ethical, and proper.  I
> know every XML and IAR file on my local computer is licensed for such use
> and I would use such a tool with no hesitation at all, and would probably
> want to kiss the developer who made it because it would save me an enormous
> amount of time and effort.
> 
> 
> Regarding third party inventory services:
> 
> So let's say 20 reputable opensource content creators got together and
> decided to pool our resources to make a repository of content available,
> and we each had 500 items to contribute. Think Linda Kellie, who has the
> most open permissions of any Opensim creator I know, or Vanish Seriath of
> Opensim Creations, etc. So now we have a repository of 10,000 items that
> are legally licensed from trusted sources that can be used on any grid.
>  Would you really argue the ideal situation is that each user should
> manually download each item from that repository and then each user should
> manually upload each item to each and every grid every time they want to
> use something from it?  Surely not, that's crazy.  But that's pretty much
> the current situation.
> 
> The ideal situation would be to have my inventory of legally licensed
> freebie and purchased content (if it was licensed for such use) hosted not
> on each grid, but somewhere else, and accessible to me no matter what grid
> I travel to without me having to do any uploading at all. When I log on to
> a grid, some established protocol talks to my inventory (or inventories, I
> can imagine multiple services/sources), displays it as a folder when I open
> my inventory in the GUI, and makes a local copy of an item only when I rez
> it out into the world, or wear it, or whatever.  Or something like that.
>  For freebie licensed content, perhaps grids subscribe to the third party
> inventory repository and provide it as a folder in the library for every
> user of their grid, or.. I dunno!  I can imagine many permutations.
> 
> I am not a developer, so I don't fully understand all the mechanisms and
> protocols that exist or could exist to make that kind of  functionality
> possible.  But in general, it seems like Snowcrash's tool is trying to
> implement some version of that concept, and I for one am very interested in
> seeing how it might be implemented in a legal and ethical way. It would
> solve what I view as one of the biggest obstacles to Opensim adoption -
> lack of easy availability and portability of known, legally licensed,
> trusted content.
> 
> 
> Regarding opensource content creators and the need for better mechanisms to
> share opensource content:
> 
> I think Linda, Vanish, and I might be three largest web-based opensource
> content providers at the moment, but there may be more that I don't know
> about.  I obviously can't speak for them, but for myself, I spend an
> _enormous_ amount of time, energy, and what amateur skill I possess not
> just making items for the community, but countless additional hours
> packaging them up, indexing them, loading them onto a website, and doing my
> best to make it easy for people to actually port them wherever they want
> and _use_ them.
> 
> Since I am not a coder or a programmer, I unfortunately can't contribute to
> the development of the Opensim code itself.  Creating openly licensed
> content represents my attempt to contribute to the Opensim community in
> another way.  Which is why it is quite sad to me that for all the countless
> hours of effort I've dedicated to making these resources available to
> people, in the hopes of making a significant positive contribution to the
> Opensim community, the current technical limitations prevents the vast
> majority of end users from being able to use my content at all!
> 
> If Snowcrash is trying to resolve that problem, I am behind that effort
> 100%, even if I share everyone's concerns about illegitimate uses and the
> need to protect others rights, and sincerely hope that those issues and
> concerns can be addressed, too.  But I can't agree there's no legitimate
> need or use for a tool such as this - from my perspective, there is in fact
> a great need for it.
> 
> . . .
> 
> I do apologize, both for the tl;dr length of this post and because I've
> posted an awful lot in this thread, far more than I usually do. Clearly I
> feel passionately about the topic.  Maybe I'll try to take a backseat for a
> bit to make sure I'm not drowning out other voices and to think more about
> all of the possible implications of a tool with this functionality.  And
> while, for the purposes of this discussion, I am taking a strong position
> on the potential benefits for opensource creators and law-abiding end
> users, I hope it's clear that I genuinely understand, respect, and agree
> with many of the concerns that have been raised as well.  I want all
> content creators' and grid owners' rights to be respected, not just my own.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> - Chris/Fleep
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Teravus Ovares <teravus at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Just one thing to add, since you have yet to respond to my requests.
>>
>> " so now releasing a legitimate tool is the same as performing wholesale
>> theft"
>>
>> No, but developing and releasing a tool that has no legitimate uses IS
>> Illegal.   Again, I say, Legitimate as in, a use that doesn't breach a
>> contract or violate someone else's rights.   Don't stand on your high horse
>> Snowcrash, you're very wrong if you think that what you're doing is legal.
>>
>> Comparing your tool to bittorrent is like comparing apples to oranges.
>> Bittorrent is for distributing content that you have copyright of.    Your
>> tool is for distributing content that you /don't/ have copyright on.   So,
>> lets say, 'backing up' is fair use.   Ok...     but when you go to upload
>> it somewhere..  you're violating the terms of service for that new place
>> because you do not have the copyright to upload it...   and tosses DO say
>> that you must have the copyright or have permission to upload copyrighted
>> content from the copyright holder.      So, again..     It HAS NO
>> LEGITIMATE USES..   it is illegal.
>>
>> Teravus
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Snowcrash Short <
>> snowcrash.short at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On 18/11/2012 17:14, Snowcrash Short wrote:
>>>> > I fail completely to see how this tool can be a threat, let alone to a
>>>> > hobbyist running a small grid. If content creators labor under the
>>>> wrong
>>>> > impression that this tool is like copy-bot, then I could see why some
>>>> > content creators might see this as a problem.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> This tool is PRECISELY like Copybot. It allows by default to export
>>>> items that the creator has not permitted export for and has not
>>>> expected that export would be easily possible.
>>>>
>>>> Actually it isn't, copybot - as you can see from the links I have
>>> provided - is designed to copy any view-able content, i.e. if it is present
>>> in the region, copybot enables you to copy that item. Oddly enough, that is
>>> far simpler to do than backing up contents in a users inventory. The
>>> complete functionality for copying contents in a region - alá copybot - is
>>> actually already implemented in libomv, so will you ban every use of libomv
>>> as well?.
>>>
>>> This tool does indeed permit users to commit illegal acts by
>>>> default. Depending on the jurisdiction, download and/or upload are
>>>> limited by law unless explicitly permitted. Where limited by a TOS,
>>>> it is illegal practically everywhere.
>>>>
>>> Nope, as a licensee I am per default allowed to use the licensed material
>>> in any way I see fit, as long as I do not violate the copyright of the
>>> copyright holder. This includes backing up, migrating to other media, and
>>> modifying for personal use. Said rights are available to me, unless I have
>>> entered into an agreement with the copyright holder not to do so.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do see the fundamental disagreement between the community and
>>>> yourself - the community stands firmly behind the concept of
>>>> intellectual property and itemwise sale while you appear to believe
>>>> that digital items are mostly unowned and available to everyone to
>>>> be used as they see fit.
>>>>
>>> Where have I at any point rejected the concept of intellectual property?
>>> or claimed that the licensees are unrestricted in their uses? never!, you
>>> are claims are even beyond misrepresenting what I have said.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please take a moment to consider - digital items _are_ property.
>>>> They belong to someone and that someone is not the owner of the
>>>> inventory. It's the creator.
>>>
>>> And the license grant purchased from the copyright holder is property
>>> too!
>>>
>>>> A tool like this has the potential to
>>>> cause commercial creators to shun OpenSim completely and withdraw
>>>> into SL, leaving the OpenSim based worlds at the quality level of
>>>> freebies. For many of us, that quality level is not sufficient. This
>>>> is why closed grids and content protection exist.
>>>>
>>> And which is why I have offered to enable protection to those grids by
>>> implementing either the same policy as governs LL's grids or any other
>>> policy which can feasibly be implemented.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bringing inventory only while logged in doesn't work on a technical
>>>> basis either. Assets must be present on the grid for viewing even
>>>> after the user leaves.
>>>
>>> Only assets rez'ed and left by the user needs to remain, they do not need
>>> to be stored in any inventory, since they are visible in the region, as
>>> such there is no real technical need for a huge asset server held by the
>>> grid
>>>
>>>> The only thing that would be feasible to
>>>> transport with the avatar is clothing items and that concept has
>>>> been discussed by Diva and myself years ago. The issue then was that
>>>> the viewer was still GPL and off limits, so the viewer changes for
>>>> that feature were considered out of reach. However, that would still
>>>> not allow purchased items to travel with the user.
>>>>
>>> Are you too fine to touch GPL code? Admittedly the build process of the
>>> viewer is quite intricate, but the source is out there. Besides, who says
>>> that the URL returned in response for a CAPS request needs to reside on the
>>> server responding to the CAPS request?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Creators have the expectation that the grid they upload their items
>>>> to protects their IP rights. They don't expect the user to be aware
>>>> of the law or follow it - they expect the grids to do that with
>>>> their TOS and their legal teams.
>>>>
>>> If that was the case, I pity the hobbiest grid operators, because putting
>>> the onus of protecting content creators assets on individual grid operators
>>> is leaving them wide open to litigation!
>>>
>>>>
>>>> SecondInventory has respected this by disallowing the download of
>>>> items the user has not created. They made that impossible to change
>>>> by keeping their tool closed source. Their tool has become the
>>>> accepted means of moving creations between worlds.
>>>>
>>>> As open source, your tool can be trivially modified by the less
>>>> morally inclined. I would expect the community to shun your too like
>>>> copybot is shunned. I would expect the reputation of copies of your
>>>> tool that have been illegally modified to reflect on the original,
>>>> unmodified tool and thereby cause grids, over time, to detect and
>>>> ban the use of any tool descended from it, ban the users using it
>>>> and confiscate inventories from these users. Is it really your
>>>> desire to become the author of super copybot?
>>>>
>>> You seem to have great respect for my coding skills "super copybot", the
>>> source code for everything is already out there, all I have done is combine
>>> what already exists and wrap it in a user interface.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your standard response of "closed source is security by obscurity"
>>>> doesn't wash either. If there were a tool out there that is easy to
>>>> use and allows trivially copying complete items on a large scale and
>>>> that tool were just hard to find, I'd have to agree. However, there
>>>> is no such tool.
>>>
>>> Yes there is, libomv, backup command line tool!
>>>
>>>> All existing tools are complex or broken, often
>>>> both. Releasing your tool as open source can be extremely harmful to
>>>> the continuum of grids commonly known as the "metaverse".
>>>>
>>>> A significant portion of the metaverse relies on commerce and
>>>> commerce cannot be sustained in the presence of wholesale theft.
>>>>
>>> great piece of demagoguery, are you by any chance rhetorically trained?
>>> so now releasing a legitimate tool is the same as performing wholesale
>>> theft?
>>>
>>> Since you are going beyond misrepresentation and resorting to demagoguery
>>> I can only surmise that you still oppose the tool but lack additional
>>> rational arguments against it.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Snowcrash
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Melanie
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