[Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can this be done?

[Imago]

But really... How many people who aren't really looking for this info are 
going to find it. ;) Nubs aren't going to know where to look. But blocking 
by string probably wouldn't be the best, but it would work for dumb people. 
;)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frisby, Adam" <adam at deepthink.com.au>
To: <opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>; <diva at metaverseink.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can this be done?


> While I hate to rain on anyone's parade - but you can use the "-channel" 
> commandline switch to edit the version string to whatever you want. I 
> really wouldn't rely on it.
>
> Adam
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-
>> bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Imago
>> Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2010 9:34 AM
>> To: diva at metaverseink.com; opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can this be
>> done?
>>
>> Thanks, I've been looking over the code, and yeah, I know people could.
>> But
>> really how many regular joes out there would be interested enough to
>> download, compile, and play with the code. *laughs* I don't think
>> there's
>> many, because a lot of them would much rather have instant
>> gratification
>> rather then having to work for it.
>>
>> But in my opinion even fragile filtering is better then none at all.
>> Because
>> while some could get in the population en masse wouldn't be able to.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <diva at metaverseink.com>
>> To: <opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can this be
>> done?
>>
>>
>> > As Teravus said, the LL viewer sends a string identifying itself and
>> a
>> > version. In the new login procedure that is captured by the
>> > LLLoginHandlers as
>> >   if (requestData.Contains("version"))
>> >     clientVersion = requestData["version"].ToString();
>> >
>> > Right now we're not doing anything interesting with this information.
>> > When this refactoring makes it to the master branch, people can
>> replace
>> > / augment the existing LLLoginHandlers to do other things including
>> > filtering logins according to this field.
>> >
>> > But as others said here, this is a very fragile filtering, as any
>> viewer
>> > can send that field saying that it's an LL viewer.
>> >
>> > Imago wrote:
>> >> Ah! Thank you. I did read something on the subject, but then
>> suffered a
>> >> hard
>> >> drive death and it wiped out any settings I had. :( Google comes up
>> with
>> >> way
>> >> too much junk when you look for stuff as well as Mantis stuff and
>> Jiras.
>> >> I
>> >> will check in to this. So, now I know it is possible. :D Now, it's
>> just
>> >> finding a way to do it. *shrugs and laughs* If it keeps a few kids
>> out
>> >> than
>> >> that's fine. I'd rather have fun then to have to police my console
>> for
>> >> logins. :D
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Teravus Ovares" <teravus at gmail.com>
>> >> To: <opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
>> >> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:56 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can this
>> be
>> >> done?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> The viewer information is sent when the viewer logs in.      If you
>> >>> check the viewer channel version string when the viewer logs in,
>> you
>> >>> can deny based on a string match.      That's the easy (and least
>> >>> effective way) to lock only specific viewers.
>> >>>
>> >>> I believe that diva and Melanie_T were the last to work on these
>> >>> areas..    so they would probably be able to tell you where to
>> check
>> >>> 'best'.
>> >>>
>> >>> One thing to note, however, is..
>> >>>
>> >>> The viewer logs into the 'user service' by sending an XMLRPC
>> request
>> >>> to the HTTP Service with the login_to_simulator method.    It's at
>> >>> this time that the 'viewer channel string' should be checked.
>> >>>
>> >>> Teravus
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Imago <imagorabbit at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> Mostly I want this because of piece of mind, but also because I am
>> >>>> considering compiling a viewer on Hippo code that will have a
>> different
>> >>>> channel code altogether that I will probably use for the sim. If I
>> can
>> >>>> lock
>> >>>> off viewers that don't have my exact channel or code then I can be
>> sure
>> >>>> only
>> >>>> official viewers can get in. Right now the sim is only for friends
>> but
>> >>>> if
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> open it up to more I wouldn't want idiots coming in and mucking
>> about
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> place. Which is why I was asking. I know that some opensim
>> *shaking
>> >>>> head*
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> wish I could remember who and where banned certain viewers from
>> logging
>> >>>> in.
>> >>>> I'm not sure how she/he did it, though, but it got me curious as
>> to how
>> >>>> it's
>> >>>> done. That and I wouldn't really want someone using something like
>> Cryo
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> even Meerkat, but as you said... They probably all have the same
>> >>>> default
>> >>>> code. But if I put in another code and compiled it off of hippo or
>> >>>> Linden's
>> >>>> viewer I could put in my own channel and have others not able to
>> enter.
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> like security and peace of mind, but security in this day and age
>> is a
>> >>>> myth.
>> >>>> (Like those stupid broadcasting things that were supposed to stop
>> >>>> copybot.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But I was just curious if anyone had done it or heard of it. I
>> want to
>> >>>> say
>> >>>> openlifegrid did it, but I can't remember so I don't want to say
>> for
>> >>>> sure
>> >>>> until I find it again. (computer crashes suck.)
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Karen Palen" <karen_palen at yahoo.com>
>> >>>> To: <opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
>> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:24 PM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can
>> this be
>> >>>> done?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> As I think of it the answer is the same.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The Linden Labs viewer does send an identification and version
>> number,
>> >>>>> bat
>> >>>>> that really does very little. Almost every viewer out there is
>> based
>> >>>>> on
>> >>>>> the current LL viewer and many people don't bother changing this
>> code
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>> their experimental versions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> For example I just checked and I have a customised LL viewer
>> where the
>> >>>>> only change is that it will log on to my private sim by default.
>> The
>> >>>>> ID
>> >>>>> codes are identical to the original since I never bothered to
>> change
>> >>>>> them.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I use it to make sure that my private sim will run OK with the
>> >>>>> "official"
>> >>>>> viewer.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I am not really sure why you would want that restriction though.
>> >>>>> Should
>> >>>>> I
>> >>>>> be considering that for my sim? Have I missed something here?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sorry.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Karen
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Imago <imagorabbit at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> From: Imago <imagorabbit at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can
>> this
>> >>>>>> be
>> >>>>>> done?
>> >>>>>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> >>>>>> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 10:05 PM
>> >>>>>> I don't think anyone is
>> >>>>>> understanding. :D It's not just Cryo. I want only
>> >>>>>> Linden Lab viewers to be able to login. I've seen it done
>> >>>>>> on other
>> >>>>>> opensim's. I know people can get around that. But the point
>> >>>>>> is... Not
>> >>>>>> everyone is a coder. So, while they could compile and make
>> >>>>>> it look like a
>> >>>>>> Linden Lab viewer then so be it. I just want to know if
>> >>>>>> there's a mod or
>> >>>>>> string that I can put in to opensim to see what channel the
>> >>>>>> viewer is
>> >>>>>> sending, and if it's not the right one than to display an
>> >>>>>> error message that
>> >>>>>> would tell them to download an official release in order to
>> >>>>>> login.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Maybe I should have chosen my words better. Mentioning Cryo
>> >>>>>> is like
>> >>>>>> mentioning copybot, and responses only seem to be based on
>> >>>>>> theft and copy
>> >>>>>> protection. I just want to know if there's a string to
>> >>>>>> block a viewer. I
>> >>>>>> know people have done it I just can't remember what opensim
>> >>>>>> I saw it done
>> >>>>>> on. I also know that if I had Cryo source code I could
>> >>>>>> compile and make it
>> >>>>>> look like a Second Life release viewer. But not everyone is
>> >>>>>> a hacker or a
>> >>>>>> coder or both. Most people don't know how or can't compile
>> >>>>>> a viewer or are
>> >>>>>> too lazy to. So, they go look for one, and that's the basis
>> >>>>>> for my thinking
>> >>>>>> most theives are too lazy to try to figure out a way and
>> >>>>>> will move on to the
>> >>>>>> next target.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So, the question I'm asking is:
>> >>>>>> Is there a way for OpenSim to check a viewer string and
>> >>>>>> allow or disallow
>> >>>>>> based on that, and if so please let me know where that code
>> >>>>>> is, and if
>> >>>>>> not... Then I'll be burning the midnight oil again coding
>> >>>>>> one up.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>> From: "Karen Palen" <karen_palen at yahoo.com>
>> >>>>>> To: <opensim-users at lists.berlios.de>
>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:44 PM
>> >>>>>> Subject: [Opensim-users] Banning "bad" viewers was Re: Can
>> >>>>>> this be done?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The short answer is no.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The more complete answer is that you while can easily
>> >>>>>> detect some
>> >>>>>>> characteristic of a viewer (or other software) which
>> >>>>>> identifies that
>> >>>>>>> viewer and use that to ban it, nothing can stop the
>> >>>>>> authors of that viewer
>> >>>>>>> from changing whatever characteristic you use.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Worse yet, whatever characteristic you select to
>> >>>>>> identify the "bad"
>> >>>>>>> software will inevitably turn up in some other
>> >>>>>> (innocent) viewer sooner or
>> >>>>>>> later and will cause them to be banned for no reason.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The best you could hope to achieve is some sort of
>> >>>>>> "arms race" between
>> >>>>>>> "bad" viewer creators and sim operators.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> In addition any viewer could be adapted for piracy.
>> >>>>>> The original
>> >>>>>>> experiments that resulted in
>> >>>>>> libsecondlife/openMetaverse were based on
>> >>>>>>> analysing the data stream between the Second Life
>> >>>>>> Servers and the viewer
>> >>>>>>> software (at the time ONLY the Linden Labs viewer) and
>> >>>>>> had access to all
>> >>>>>>> of that information. This was all done without
>> >>>>>> modifying the viewer in any
>> >>>>>>> way - it was proprietary at the time.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sadly the lesson of the endless failures of DRM
>> >>>>>> schemes elsewhere shows
>> >>>>>>> that the real losers are the honest/innocent users who
>> >>>>>> are unable to do
>> >>>>>>> the things that they really should expect to do with
>> >>>>>> the content that they
>> >>>>>>> have purchased.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> For example, I have completely stopped buying anything
>> >>>>>> in Second Life
>> >>>>>>> since I want to use the inventory I buy in my private
>> >>>>>> sims as well. Sure I
>> >>>>>>> can use pirate tools to do this, but if I have to do
>> >>>>>> that to use my
>> >>>>>>> purchases where I want to use them then why not just
>> >>>>>> steal the stuff in
>> >>>>>>> the first place?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> This is very similar to the situation with music CDs
>> >>>>>> and DVDs, why build
>> >>>>>>> an expensive collection if you will just have to
>> >>>>>> re-purchase it in a few
>> >>>>>>> years for the next technology and some DRM scheme
>> >>>>>> tries to keep me from
>> >>>>>>> playing my collection on the new equipment?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There are several efforts being directed at come sort
>> >>>>>> of "portable"
>> >>>>>>> content. I hope that one or more actually proves to
>> >>>>>> work, but I have no
>> >>>>>>> illusions about that actually happening any time
>> >>>>>> soon.
>> >>>>>>> My opinion is that the best we can do at present is
>> >>>>>> similar to the real
>> >>>>>>> life piracy situation: stop the commercial marketing
>> >>>>>> of pirated
>> >>>>>>> merchandise as it is detected and reported. Ban anyone
>> >>>>>> who engages in such
>> >>>>>>> activities and if they persist bring real world law
>> >>>>>> enforcement to bear.
>> >>>>>>> For once Linden Labs seems to be using a reasonable
>> >>>>>> version of this when
>> >>>>>>> they state that the viewer is not the problem, it is
>> >>>>>> the use of the
>> >>>>>>> viewer. They have promised to act promptly to ban
>> >>>>>> anyone using any viewer
>> >>>>>>> for piracy.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Karen
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Imago <imagorabbit at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Is it possible to stop
>> >>>>>>>> certain viewers from logging
>> >>>>>>>> in to your opensim? Like Cryo?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> >>>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>> >>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
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