[Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
Karen Palen
karen_palen at yahoo.com
Sun Nov 22 16:29:22 UTC 2009
I have to wonder if that isn't being too "SecondLife centric"!
There really seems to be no reason why you can't give each user an entire region with OpenSim.
The restrictions and expense of a region really boil down to SecondLife's business model in which they charge for virtual land by the square meter. This is not due to any fundamental cost increment - the real cost variables are things like the number of prims and avatars on the land, not its "virtual area".
This still does not address any ownership issues which really are a different dimension of the problem. I suspect that this is bound up in the ownership issues you see in Hypergrids.
I don't have a good solution to these issues, apart from being prepared to donate much of my own past 3d work.
Karen
--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 7:04 PM
>
> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more
> robust tool for
> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and
> parcels. The use
> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been
> subdivided into 32
> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can
> personalize their
> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be
> able to backup a
> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user.
> If the original
> user comes back for another project I need to restore their
> office space to
> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I
> seriously do not
> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change
> of a tiny parcel.
> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it
> would be to just
> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This
> would give OpenSim a
> really cool and useful advantage.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Diva Canto wrote:
> >
> > Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps
> I'm involved with
> > include people building things in separate development
> sims, possibly
> > over copies of a base model, and then having a
> deployment sim where
> > things are merged periodically.
> >
> > Bob Wellman wrote:
> >> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar
> we could specify
> >> owner-id and then the saved file would only
> contain prims owned by that
> >> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger
> change I think in trems of
> >> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
> >>
> >> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is
> the way it replaces
> >> everything in a sim. It would be good if there
> were an option to replace
> >> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the
> file being loaded.
> >> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to
> replace only parts of
> >> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new
> oar of Nicks prims
> >> leaving Toms prims where they are).
> >>
> >> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a
> city) is built by the
> >> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded
> via OAR files to a
> >> public grid. Then in that public grid other people
> (Tom) adds
> >> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the
> meantime the sim owner
> >> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his
> standalone which he wants
> >> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If
> he does load-oar he
> >> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the
> public grid version. What
> >> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So
> we need someway to save
> >> each contribution and merge them.
> >>
> >> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a
> syntax for this.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
> >> > From: diva at metaverseink.com
> >> > To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> >> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel
> Archiver?
> >> >
> >> > There are several kinds of filters one
> could add to the general
> >> > archiving facility. Parcels... why not.
> Another one -- more important
> >> to
> >> > me -- is owner id.
> >> >
> >> > Stefan Andersson wrote:
> >> > > There is of course always the
> option to implement a region module
> >> that can
> >> > > implement some fairly more
> detailed use case, maybe connecting to
> >> stuff like
> >> > > scheduled jobs et c.
> >> > >
> >> > > /Stefan
> >> > >
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-users-
> >> > >> bounces at lists.berlios.de]
> On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> >> > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 15:24
> >> > >> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users]
> Parcel Archiver?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I see your points and was only
> suggesting we have some refined way
> >> of
> >> > >> backing
> >> > >> up regions instead of either
> all or nothing. Even a basic program
> >> for
> >> > >> backing up data on a computer
> allows you to backup either the whole
> >> > >> disk,
> >> > >> individual directories, and
> individual files (tar vs dd for
> >> example).
> >> > >> We
> >> > >> have methods for backing up
> the whole drive and individual files
> >> but
> >> > >> not
> >> > >> directories. It just seems
> unbalanced.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I have seen some pretty
> intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
> >> small
> >> > >> parcels that would be a huge
> issue to recreate. The IAR files are
> >> great
> >> > >> but
> >> > >> are not a reasonable method
> for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
> >> > >> parcel
> >> > >> with several buildings full of
> content including a museum and
> >> > >> stage/events
> >> > >> area or a nightclub.
> Experience tells me we are going to need this
> >> if
> >> > >> we
> >> > >> continue to support the
> concept of having parcels.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -Robert
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >> > >>> One way to go about it
> could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
> >> > >> into
> >> > >>> parcels when storing it;
> if so, one would probably backup the
> >> whole
> >> > >> oar,
> >> > >>> but
> >> > >>> be able to restore only
> parts of the oar.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I have only used oars for
> full backup, so I don't know if the
> >> parcel
> >> > >> info
> >> > >>> is
> >> > >>> already stored in it?
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> /Stefan
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> >> > >>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de]
> On Behalf Of Len
> >> > >> Brown
> >> > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 09:20
> >> > >>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> >> > >>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I am tempted to say that
> individual parcel backups is not a good
> >> > >> idea. If
> >> > >>> one is building on a
> parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
> >> simply
> >> > >>> maintaining copies of
> their items in their inventory should be
> >> > >> adequate.
> >> > >>> Parcels come in so many
> sizes and making a backup would require
> >> the
> >> > >> new
> >> > >>> parcel for a restore would
> have to be identical in dimensions. So
> >> > >> this
> >> > >>> can
> >> > >>> be very complex if you
> have a parcel that, for example, lies along
> >> a
> >> > >> road
> >> > >>> so
> >> > >>> the side of your parcel is
> angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
> >> > >> parcel
> >> > >>> or
> >> > >>> a combination of parcels
> that are separated by other parcels you
> >> do
> >> > >> not
> >> > >>> own.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Backing up a region is
> simple enough given the standard
> >> dimensions,
> >> > >> even
> >> > >>> when dealing with
> megaregions, which are really just a combination
> >> of
> >> > >>> multiple "regular" regions
> of standard size.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> So I feel that backing up
> personal parcels should remain the
> >> process
> >> > >> of
> >> > >>> maintaining items in your
> personal inventory and making a backup
> >> of
> >> > >> THAT
> >> > >>> rather than the parcel
> area itself.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> - Len W. Brown
> >> > >>> lenwbrown at gmail.com
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at
> 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
> >> <karen_palen at yahoo.com>
> >> > >>> wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Just a thought, but with
> the economics of OpenSim being totally
> >> > >> different
> >> > >>> from Second Life, I wonder
> if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
> >> > >> parcels
> >> > >>> in each region?
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> It seems to me that there
> are several issues here concerning
> >> changes
> >> > >> in
> >> > >>> parcel size/location
> between backup and restore as well as some
> >> > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning
> issues.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> As I think about the
> problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
> >> > >> fully
> >> > >>> articulate even the nature
> of those issues since they depend
> >> heavily
> >> > >> on
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> direction that OpenSim
> development and implementation takes.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Just the same we do need
> to consider them as best we can lest we
> >> fall
> >> > >> into
> >> > >>> some of the same traps as
> Second Life (content ownership, banking
> >> > >> debacle,
> >> > >>> and gambling come to
> mind).
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Karen
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09,
> Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>> From: Robert Klein
> <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
> >> > >>>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >> > >>>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> >> > >>>> Date: Friday, November
> 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Hey Justin,
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Yes that is correct,
> just archive a single parcel on a
> >> > >>>> region. Whatever is
> >> > >>>> in the parcel gets put
> into the PAR file. Can it be done?
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> -Robert
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> justincc wrote:
> >> > >>>>> Robert Klein
> wrote:
> >> > >>>>>> We have a OAR
> for regions and a IAR for inventory
> >> > >>>> but what about a PAR
> >> > >>>>>> for
> >> > >>>>>> doing parcel
> area archiving? It would be an easy
> >> > >>>> way to dedicate one
> >> > >>>>>> subdivided
> parcel area for bringing things in and
> >> > >>>> out of OpenSims that
> >> > >>>>>> either use the
> mega region or just have a single
> >> > >>>> region that is
> >> > >>>>>> subdivided.
> >> > >>>>>> Also the
> beauty of this would be in the future if
> >> > >>>> you have renters or
> >> > >>>>>> event
> >> > >>>>>> spaces you can
> keep backups of just those spaces.
> >> > >>>>> I'm not too sure
> if I get exactly what you mean.
> >> > >>>> Are you talking about
> >> > >>>>> archiving just the
> contents of a single parcel on a
> >> > >>>> region?
> >> > >>>>> --
> >> > >>>>> justincc
> >> > >>>>> Justin
> Clark-Casey
> >> > >>>>> http://justincc.org
> >> > >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
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