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+1 On seth's idea..<br>
I too would prefer to see only allow the option of either correct or
false values.<br>
<br>
~Terry<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/9/2015 10:05 AM, Seth Nygard
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5640B650.1090904@gmail.com" type="cite">Let
the FPS wars begin so there can be confusion everywhere...
<br>
Now those that want to can set a ridiculous fudge factor and show
11000000FPS - WOW, look, waaaaaaay faster than "that other grid"!
<br>
<br>
I firmly disagree in adding anything that allows artificially
inflated metrics for any value. At this stage the configurable
fudge factor is an even worse "fix" IMHO.
<br>
<br>
The correct fix is really to communicate the correct value(s) and
put pressure on the viewer developers to fix their lag
calculation(s). People can be expected to update their viewer(s)
which is not an unrealistic expectation. People running old
and/or unsupported viewers already have a plethora of issues they
need to be aware of and things that don't work right, so why is
the lag indicator any different?
<br>
<br>
If we must have this user configurable then, instead of a fudge
factor value it should be a simple boolean setting such as;
<br>
ShowArtificiallyInflatedAndIncorrectFPS = false;
<br>
ShowArtificiallyInflatedAndIncorrectFPS = true;
<br>
<br>
On my grid I have made it a point to inform everyone that the
calculated lag indicator is broken and the 11FPS is in the correct
and normal value. I also point out that what used to be shown was
in fact a falsified and artificially inflated value to make things
look like "that other grid". Most people simple say "Oh yeah, I
never paid attention to that anyhow. It doesn't work right any of
the time anyhow". Many then say they looked at the wiki but
couldn't find any information on what to expect.
<br>
<br>
If whenever people ask for documentation the standard reply from
the dev community is "read the code" then why is it so hard to ask
for, and expect the viewers to be fixed and updated?
<br>
<br>
-Seth
<br>
<br>
On 09/11/2015 8:56 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:opensim-dev-request@opensimulator.org">opensim-dev-request@opensimulator.org</a>
wrote:
<br>
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Today's Topics:
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<br>
1. Re: Still on Sim and Phys Frames per Second (FPS)
(Melanie IMAP)
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
<br>
Message: 1
<br>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:56:22 +0100
<br>
From: Melanie IMAP <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com"><melanie@t-data.com></a>
<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:opensim-dev@opensimulator.org">"opensim-dev@opensimulator.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:opensim-dev@opensimulator.org"><opensim-dev@opensimulator.org></a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Still on Sim and Phys Frames per
Second
<br>
(FPS)
<br>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:925ECFD1-AF4F-42EE-A1F7-806717665871@t-data.com"><925ECFD1-AF4F-42EE-A1F7-806717665871@t-data.com></a>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<br>
<br>
Hi,
<br>
<br>
what has changed is that I had never used the "Lag meter",
because such a simplistic tool with "idiot lights" can't be
accurate.
<br>
Therefore I didn't know it based it's findings on this stat.
<br>
<br>
It takes a while for information to filter back from users to
grid operators, so I didn't haer about the problems in userland
until a month or so ago.
<br>
<br>
Fact is that, previously unknown to me, the viewer uses this
stat in an arithmetic fashion as opposed to just displaying it.
<br>
<br>
While the past has shown that script and module writers are
happy to adapt to such changes, we know thet viewers are much
slower to update. Also, some widely used viewers are no longer
maintained at all.
<br>
<br>
Because if this, the _option_ of restoring the "fudge factor"
was brought back. The default, which will be discussed further,
is 1.0, which means accurate stats remain n effect, but grids
with angry users will be able to restore fudged values to keep
peace in their communities.
<br>
<br>
I still believe the accurate measurements should be reported,
but we needs must bow to realities like the Lag Meter.
<br>
<br>
I have suggested to extend the reported data by a new field that
represents accurate values so viewers can choose to diplay the
accurate value and still have the normalized value available to
drive the lag meter.
<br>
<br>
- Melanie
<br>
<br>
On 9 Nov 2015, at 04:04, dz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dz@bitzend.net"><dz@bitzend.net></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
Call me confused...... But don't tell me I can't read
history!
<br>
<br>
This discussion is about a patch that was submitted in March
and that patch was based on questions that were raised in
February.
<br>
According to my reading of the discussions that Google has so
kindly archived in my Opensim-dev folder the ONLY technical
objection to the proposed patch dealt with an issue on the
accuracy of time dilation factors.
<br>
<br>
There were numerous calls for people who might be affected
to speak up... There were repeated calls for opinions and
I see +1's from Diva, BlueWall, Nebadon, and others who saw
fit to participate and voice opinions. The ONLY objection
raised to changing to an accurate reporting was the assertion
that "significant numbers of monitoring tools and bots" might
need to be reworked. Divas call for additional discussion
delayed the implementation of the patch for over 2 months
and NO ONE objected to modifying their "numerous monitoring
scripts" or even commented on a potential negative impact.
<br>
<br>
Its been months since the patch was applied and the world
hasn't stopped turning. Until just a few days ago there
was nary a PEEP about any adverse impact on the mailing
lists... WHERE is this horde of angry users??? They don't
seem to be participating in any of the OpenSim communities I
track... then after almost a WHOLE DAY a patch is
introduced into the next GIANT ( read Impossible to parse
through) Update to reverse the agreement that was
achieved. Pardon me if I wonder WTF ???? This sure makes
me confident!
<br>
<br>
Of course there are always delicious tidbits of
perspective that a look in the history books provides....
these 2 both made me laugh....
<br>
<br>
Melanie <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com"><melanie@t-data.com></a>
<br>
Apr 25
<br>
<br>
to opensim-dev
<br>
I had been under the impression that the "fudge factor" on these
stats was common knowledge.
<br>
Good arguments have been brought for changing them to provide
accurate metrics and I find I can't sustain an objection to
progress, especially since SL appears to have a limited shelf
life these days.
<br>
Announcing this well enough should be sufficient, because I
somehow can't see how anyone using advanced monitoring tools
could not be subscribed to one of the mailing lists.
<br>
<br>
Whats changed ???
<br>
When did the consensus achieved in the discussion group
become so unimportant?
<br>
<br>
Now we hear that "new reporting statistics" will be
implemented to provide "Accurate reporting" ...
<br>
....and that brings me to the last bit of history that
sums this whole thing up nicely.... a letter to the core
devs from teravus dated from 11/27 2009
<br>
<br>
( if you don't feel like tearing through the whole thing... It
is a call to start designing accurate performance measurement
metrics into the fabric of OpenSim rather than relying on
fudged stats that might make users "feel good " about what is
reported by the viewer. It also discusses the absolute NEED
for accuracy so performance progress can be measured, and
closes with the fact that the load tests were ultimately
FUTILE without efforts to move forward and CORRECT the made
up numbers)
<br>
<br>
Teravus Ovares <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:teravus@gmail.com"><teravus@gmail.com></a>
<br>
11/27/09
<br>
<br>
to opensim-dev
<br>
Hey there,
<br>
<br>
A while back, we had somewhat reasonable statistics being
generated and presented to the client. They were not always
accurate, but based on what I saw, I could, pretty much pin
certain parts of the simulator as the limiting factor during
load tests.
<br>
<br>
I'd say, the number 1 reason that they were semi-accurate and
not accurate.. in the past.. is because nobody ever thought
about instrumentation during the functionality design. It
was always 'tacked on later'. One example of this.. is the
current AssetCache implementation. There's no way, currently,
to know, at a glance.. how many external requests it has
open. Additionally, it will be extremely difficult to put one
in because of the way the objects are designed and accessed. To
put one in, an event needs to be added to the IAssetService
interface and each AssetCache implementation will need an
interlocked int to count how many gets and puts it currently has
open to the external data source as well as it's own event
calling schedule. Then, the IAssetService property in Scene,
(AssetService) will need an event handler.. which updates the
values in SimStatsReporter in Scene (StatsReporter). This idea
of external access resource instrumentation should </blockquote>
re
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> ally have been built in to the design of
the AssetService.
<br>
<br>
This last recent load test, there were no real statistics that I
could use to determine what the limiting factor was. Time
Dilation was pegged at 1.0.. even when the simulator was
obviously struggling. Total Frame time (MS) was -50ms even
when the simulation MS was 850ms and the Physics ms was 250ms,
so the inconsistencies made it impossible to know what part of
the simulator was struggling. Agent Updates were erratic..
sometimes high..
<br>
sometimes low when the simulator was fine and when it was
struggling. Pending Uploads and Downloads were always 0, so
there was no way to know how well the simulator was downloading
and uploading assets to and from the grid. Packet stats were
non-existant, so there was no way to know how well the UDP
handlers were faring under the load. When it crashed, it crashed
with a mono based stack trace which pointed to out of memory
errors, so the only way that you could, scientifically, find out
what the issue is.. is to run a load test under a memory
profiler. We know, that running a public load test under a
memory profiler is quite impractical.
<br>
<br>
To make something better, I need to know two things, where it
is, and where I want it to be. How can we make OpenSimulator
better if we don't have statistics that point to where we are
currently?
<br>
<br>
On that note, I propose that, when designing objects for
functionality in OpenSimulator, that we also consider if the
objects should be instrumented and, what would be the best way
to go about instrumenting the objects. We should incorporate
instrumentation into the design of the objects. Some of that
instrumentation is appropriate for a client to see, some of it
might not be. Consider that, many of them should be client
facing and be included in the SimStats that get sent to the
client.. so that we can have a reasonable idea of what's
going on with a simulator at a glance. Also, in the design of
the instrumentation, we make sure that the instrumentation is
accurate and
<br>
lightweight.
<br>
<br>
The load test went reasonably... but, we didn't get half of
the information on the simulator that we needed to be able to
improve it.
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please comment :) I look forward to hearing your responses.
<br>
<br>
Regards
<br>
<br>
Teravus
<br>
<br>
<br>
I guess it should be no surprise that the current call to
improve and provide ACCURATE performance statistics
reporting should be derided and dismissed. ( apologies to
those members of core who voted +1 ad helped us push this
forward) Not only are members of the communities calls ( AND
contributions) to improve this area of OpenSim ignored, so
are the calls from fellow core devs about what is needed
and how it should be implemented... Forgive me if I seem
JUST A BIT CYNICAL that these corrected stats are
forthcoming...
<br>
<br>
If you are going to accede to user demands, maybe you should
consider the effort some of us users put into to getting this
patch approved in the first place.... As far as I can tell
we are the ones contributing to the project by participating in
this forum... Please feel free to forward me some names
and email addresses of these clamoring hordes of unhappy
users so I can search for their outrage in my other OpenSim
related groups and invite them to participate in future
discussions here...
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 8:55 PM,
AJLDuarte <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ajlduarte@sapo.pt"><ajlduarte@sapo.pt></a> wrote:
<br>
The fudge factor is now a configuration option on the
avinationmerge branch.
<br>
It can be found in OpenSimDefaults.ini under the name
StatisticsFPSfactor,
<br>
and can be set in OpenSim.ini as usual.
<br>
Its default in code is the legacy value of 5.0.
<br>
Current setting on file is temporary 1.0, until we decide on a
"final"
<br>
default.
<br>
<br>
Regards,
<br>
Ubit
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----
<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org">opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a>
<br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org">mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Melanie
<br>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 02:35
<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:opensim-dev@opensimulator.org">opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Still on Sim and Phys Frames per
Second (FPS)
<br>
<br>
There are too many viewers in the wild, having too many users
that are
<br>
unwilling to switch or update, yet complain about "lag" which
they do not
<br>
perceive, but which is indicated by a "lag meter" that is
geared to measure
<br>
against constants provided by "that grid".
<br>
<br>
It is a given that the data sent to viewers WILL be changed to
allow viewer
<br>
features to work properly again. It is also a given that
control over this
<br>
will be given to users of OpenSim, allowing them to see true
performance
<br>
data instead of expected data. However, that option can't be
the default in
<br>
a world where the primary use of OpenSim is to provide a
social virtual
<br>
world.
<br>
<br>
I had already suggested and here suggest it again to add more
data to the
<br>
stats reporting that will track accurate and unfudged data,
but doesn't do
<br>
so in fields currently interpreted in accordance to SL
standards by ALL
<br>
mainstream viewers.
<br>
<br>
This will allow viewers which become aware of the new data to
use it to
<br>
provide accurate stats and, for instance, make an adaptive
"lag meter" in
<br>
place of the current, constants driven one.
<br>
<br>
The situation where viewer report an ERROR CONDITION because
of the desire
<br>
of some to see "accurate" stats can not be sustained because
it undermines
<br>
user confidence.
<br>
<br>
The choices are to accede to user demands while creating a way
for viewers
<br>
to get "smarter" or to live in a world where the change is
introduced at
<br>
source code level by grid operators without an adequate
correct replacement
<br>
stat, therefore locking in the current situation forever.
<br>
<br>
Please understand that core exists to guide this project in a
way that
<br>
allows it's users to work, not in a way that upholds
principles over people.
<br>
<br>
- Melanie
<br>
<br>
On 08/11/2015 02:53, dz wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The issue is promoting accurate
reporting of basic performance
<br>
measurement statistics. ( something that has not
achieved nearly
<br>
enough serious attention )
<br>
<br>
Significant money and manpower is currently being directed
at efforts
<br>
to improve simulator performance.
<br>
It is a simple fact that the continued funding of these
efforts
<br>
relies on documenting the ACTUAL improvement against the
ACTUAL
<br>
original performance characteristics.
<br>
It is impossible to justify these efforts when the reported
numbers
<br>
are "made up" and THAT fact is not documented except in
some
<br>
obscure comment left behind in the source code.
<br>
<br>
It is unfortunate that the original decision to include a
"Fudge
<br>
factor multiplier" has created a pool of mis-informed
users ( including
<br>
</blockquote>
myself
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">and the viewer developers ) .
<br>
This mistake was complicated by the fact that until very
recently
<br>
there was a philosophical divide that prevented OpenSim and
viewer
<br>
developers from cooperating on issues like these.
<br>
This decision to "play pretend" with performance stats
effectively
<br>
damaged the reporting credibility of everyone who
published these
<br>
inaccurate results, It also created a rift between the
OpenSim and
<br>
viewer developers over the decision to NOT discuss the
impact of
<br>
</blockquote>
implementing the change.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> The fact is, there are numerous
places in the OpenSim framework
<br>
where numbers are "made up" just so that a number
appears in
<br>
performance reports. That an effort is being made to
correct those
<br>
sources of mis-information should be welcomed.
<br>
<br>
It seems to me that the decisions made by core should be
made in
<br>
favor of supporting the ongoing efforts to accurately
document and
<br>
improve simulator performance.
<br>
Justin realized this and lead many of the efforts to add
some measurement
<br>
metrics. Even with those efforts, we still cannot
measure basic
<br>
statistics like Events per Second sent to the script
engine, or tie
<br>
those events to whatever script is handling them. This
makes
<br>
identifying the scripts ACTUALLY responsible for "lagging"
a region
<br>
impossible using the traditional TOP SCRIPTS report in
region manager
<br>
</blockquote>
window.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I would agree that a simple solution
might be to allow grid managers
<br>
to add back the Fudge Factor to appease their vocal users,
but would
<br>
disagree that the PROPER decision should be to continue to
report
<br>
inaccurate results. It would be just as easy to implement
a
<br>
multiplier in the viewer code "Lag Meter", This would
also allow
<br>
the accurate reporting of statistics in the Advanced
Statistics
<br>
window and administrative reporting. I believe it was
also one of
<br>
the suggested resolutions put forth by the viewer
developers... It
<br>
should be clear to anyone who has spent time in world that
the "lag
<br>
</blockquote>
meter" is incorrect...
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">You can walk, build, chat and TP with
the same level of sim
<br>
performance as you could before the numbers were changed.
We've
<br>
overlooked the fact that viewers have behaved differently
in OpenSim and
<br>
</blockquote>
"that other grid"
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> for years. Why is it "all of a
sudden" CRITICAL that this one
<br>
</blockquote>
viewer
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">feature HAS to be the same? In
these days when core developers are
<br>
releasing viewers, I cannot understand the urgency of
accommodating a
<br>
minor feature of one viewer whose developers have already
<br>
demonstrated a willingness to work with OpenSim to tailor a
<br>
configuration to meet our needs.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Melanie
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com"><melanie@t-data.com></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The issue here is the so-called "lag
meter". Since removal of the
<br>
multiplier, this reports all opensim regions as laggy,
without
<br>
exception. Users' trust in the "lag meter" is damaging
OpenSim
<br>
reputation. This is not a value that is merely for
display; the
<br>
viewer uses this value for computations that are then used
to "judge"
<br>
a sim to be "laggy" if it's below 35 or so fps. OpenSim
now always
<br>
reports a lesser value. This is damaging and needs to be
made
<br>
configurable and by default match the viewer's
expectations.
<br>
<br>
- Melanie
<br>
<br>
On 07/11/2015 16:38, Seth Nygard wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">While I understand the arguments
surrounding the original decision
<br>
to report values closely matching "the other grid", IMHO
doing so
<br>
created an incorrect understanding in many users' minds
of how
<br>
things work and/or behave. We are not that other grid
and should
<br>
never pretend to be. Had figures been reported
correctly in the
<br>
beginning then there would be no confusion now
surrounding this
<br>
subject. However avoiding confusion is a poor reason to
roll back and
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
once again report the
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">artificially inflated values. It
is better to simply educate and make
<br>
it clear that the value of 11fps is indeed the correct
value to
<br>
expect, and is in fact the true value things always have
ran at
<br>
despite what any inflated reported value said.
<br>
<br>
It is true that many scripts and tools have already been
written to
<br>
use the inflated values but they can all be changed with
relative
<br>
ease. The viewers already have many aspects that are
different for
<br>
Open Simulator so they can be changed easily as well for
new
<br>
versions also with relative ease. All we need to do as
a community
<br>
is establish what the correct and expected values are
and then document
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
and communicate them.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">As a user, scripter, tool
developer, and grid manager, I for one
<br>
want to see true and accurate values for any and all
metrics
<br>
regardless of where they are shown or how they may be
used. I
<br>
therefore am firmly against rolling back to any older
artificially
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
inflated values.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Regards
<br>
-Seth
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
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</blockquote>
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End of Opensim-dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
---------------------<br>
<b>Terry Ford</b><br>
DigiWorldz Grid<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://digiworldz.com">http://digiworldz.com</a></div>
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