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I'm not hearing anyone -1-ing this anymore. I'm traveling today, but
I'll take care of the patch when I'm back.<br>
<br>
Doug -- it's unfortunate that time has been wasted by you, my
students and others, but there is never an ill intention behind
bugs and other oddities. They're just bugs and oddities, and they
need to be fixed. Some fixes seem obvious, but in a socially complex
ecosystem like OpenSim, even obvious fixes sometimes have
consequences that need to be taken into account.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/25/2015 3:52 PM, Melanie wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:5B6052CF-4400-4B46-A7AB-D54A6BAAAB8D@t-data.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div>I had been under the impression that the "fudge factor" on
these stats was common knowledge.</div>
<div>Good arguments have been brought for changing them to provide
accurate metrics and I find I can't sustain an objection to
progress, especially since SL appears to have a limited shelf
life these days.</div>
<div>Announcing this well enough should be sufficient, because I
somehow can't see how anyone using advanced monitoring tools
could not be subscribed to one of the mailing lists.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Melanie<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
On 25 Apr 2015, at 22:28, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US)
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:douglas.maxwell3.civ@mail.mil">douglas.maxwell3.civ@mail.mil</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
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<p>I have heard this point brought up a few times and we
concur. As it turns out, the statistics we collected during
the joint ARL/Intel DSG events (all 6 of them) are now in
question. We published results from those events in
multiple conferences. Further, I am devoting a significant
amount of engineering labor hours to a team that currently
includes 6 computer scientists, two of which have PhD's.
The realization that we had been testing and sampling the
open simulator for physics and scalability on bogus
simulator data was shocking. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Folks, you may not realize this but knowingly propagating
the erroneous code is intellectually dishonest and has
already wasted precious research funding. That we are even
debating whether or not to fix the simulator reporting
mechanisms is disturbing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What we should be debating is "how". The MOSES project has
provided a solution that works for us and we need your
knowledgeable feedback as core code experts to know if our
solution is feasible for the community.</p>
<div>
<p> </p>
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<div id="divRpF77311" style="DIRECTION: ltr"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org">opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org">opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a>]
on behalf of Diva Canto [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:diva@metaverseink.com">diva@metaverseink.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 25, 2015 2:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:opensim-dev@opensimulator.org">opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted
(UNCLASSIFIED)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to hear from people who have either
monitoring tools or bots that rely on the incorrect
physics FPS. If these people exist, let's hear what pain
it would cause them to correct the number. Otherwise, I
don't see any reason to continue to report an incorrect
number, and I see many reasons for fixing it: several PhD
students have now either wasted a lot of their time or
even made wrong data analysis because of this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/24/2015 9:08 PM, Michael
Emory Cerquoni wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">It is more than just bots that worry me,
many people have written custom monitoring tools to
monitor region performance to automatically restart
regions, not to mention script that could potentially
rely on
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="OsGetRegionStats"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
osGetRegionStats >
http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OsGetRegionStats</a>
we could be potentially breaking all of this content
if we are talking about long term leaving the
statistics at these lower numbers, if we are talking
about eventually having them resume to the normal
levels etc.. that is something else, and if that is
the case I would suggest we start a new branch for
that work that would eventually merge into master once
the work was complete. Like i said I am not against
doing this work, but not at the expense of causing
mass chaos amongst important users and testers of this
software, how can we say we are improving the software
if we are rushing into breaking stuff people may be
very reliant on.
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 12:01
AM, Diva Canto <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">diva@metaverseink.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:
1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc
1px solid">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">I'm +1 on the changes. I
find it very unsettling to be shown a physics
fps that is incorrect, and some of my students
have been very confused about it in the past. I
don't think the changes will affect bots in any
significant way, but if someone can point me to
a bot that will be affected, I would like to
know.
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 4/24/2015 6:23 PM, Dahlia Trimble
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>I like the idea of a multiplier
for physics fps, however I see no
need for altering the value. If a
reported number is linearly scaled,
then any change in that number is
also scaled proportionally. For
example, if I have 55 fps reported
for a real fps of 11 due to a scale
factor of 5, all I need to do is
divide by 5 to get the 11 back. If
the 55 decreases by 10%, the 11 will
also decrease by 10%. It really
shouldn't matter as either value
will provide the same indication of
change in performance.<br>
<br>
</div>
As far as SL compatibility goes, I
usually see a physics fps of 45 for a
well running region in SL, not 55. In
that case if such compatibility was
desired, the factor would be 45/11 or
approximately 4.1 rather than 5.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 24,
2015 at 6:06 PM, Michael Emory
Cerquoni <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">nebadon2025@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc
1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">Also sounds like a
reasonable solution as well, If
the goal is to improve performance
in general I am not sure it
matters what is actually reported
to the viewer , since i would
assume any kind of real analysis
would be done on the back end and
not via the viewer #'s<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:04
PM, Mike Chase <span
dir="ltr">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">mike.chase@alternatemetaverse.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex;
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px
solid">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Why
not just introduce a new
counter and function to
fetch the value. The
current one can always
return the SL adjusted
value.<span><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Mike</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On 04/24/2015
08:59 PM, Michael
Emory Cerquoni
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">What
do you think
about making the
multiplier a
modifiable
variable in
OpenSim.ini?
This will allow
anyone who wants
to improve
performance and
use the stock
#'s and in the
meantime people
can continue to
use the code in
a meaningful way
without having
to rewrite
scripts and
monitoring tools
to continue
testing other
code that may be
pushed into
core, especially
if the end goal
is to get
statistics to
report back at
the original
numbers? I am
mostly just
trying to
understand the
end goal
myself. If that
is not possible
I would suggest
this work be
moved into a
development
branch until we
can get
statistics back
to the normal
numbers again?
Otherwise we are
talking about
locking the code
down to all
other
development
until this
process is
complete, and no
one has
discussed any
kind of time
frame for this
level of changes
to complete, I
would hate to
put a complete
halt to
development in
order for this
to happen. I am
not against
doing what you
suggest, I just
want to make
sure we do it in
the most
efficient way
possible. Would
be good to hear
what others in
the core
development have
to say,
hopefully Justin
and Diva and
Melanie,
Misterblue,
BlueWall, you
guys can chime
in here as well,
as I am only one
person here and
for the record
just voicing my
own concerns, I
am far from the
final say on any
of this stuff.<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Fri, Apr 24,
2015 at 8:33
PM, Maxwell,
Douglas CIV
USARMY ARL
(US)
<span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">douglas.maxwell3.civ@mail.mil</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT:
1ex; MARGIN:
0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;
BORDER-LEFT:
#ccc 1px
solid">
Folks, before
we can make
any meaningful
progress in
performance
enhancements
to the open
simulator we
have to be
able to rely
on the
simulator
statistics.
Currently they
are
(purposefully)
misreported to
make the
simulator look
like it is
performing
better than it
really is.
This is not
acceptable if
we are to dig
in and begin
to assist.<br>
<span><br>
Douglas
Maxwell, MSME<br>
Science and
Technology
Manager<br>
Virtual World
Strategic
Applications<br>
U.S. Army
Research Lab<br>
</span>Human
Research &
Engineering
Directorate<br>
<span>Simulation
& Training
Technology
Center<br>
</span>(c) <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank" value="+14072420209">
(407) 242-0209</a><br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a>] on behalf of
Melanie [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">melanie@t-data.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Friday,
April 24, 2015
5:56 PM<br>
To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
Subject: Re:
[Opensim-dev]
MOSES patch
submitted
(UNCLASSIFIED)<br>
<div>
<div><br>
It is also my
opinion that
this change
isn't fit for
core. If and<br>
when
additional
stats, like
"real fps" and
"physics
engine fps"
can<br>
be shown in
the viewer,
then that
would be good
but the viewer
stats<br>
window should
continue to
show the
fudged figures
indefinitely.
This<br>
is because
people don't
only use
scripts but
also bots to
do<br>
monitoring and
bots receive
the same data
the viewer
receives.<br>
<br>
- Melanie<br>
<br>
On 24/04/2015
23:42, Michael
Emory Cerquoni
wrote:<br>
> ok so
just so I
understand we
should now see
this actually
just display<br>
> 11fps?
Personally I
think this is
a bad idea,
alot of people
may be using<br>
>
monitoring
apps and
scripts that
look for low
fps and
restart the
region,<br>
> we would
basically be
forcing
everyone to
rewrite a lot
of code to<br>
>
accommodate a
singular
purpose? Not
quite sure how
this improves
the<br>
> project
as a whole.<br>
><br>
> On Fri,
Apr 24, 2015
at 5:40 PM,
Michael Emory
Cerquoni <<br>
> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
nebadon2025@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> ok I
will continue
testing this
for now, we
should try to
resolve the<br>
>> white
space issues
before it hits
core, we can
worry about
that later<br>
>>
though. I hope
others can
start testing
this patch as
well we need
to<br>
>>
really make
sure this does
not break any
scripts or
monitoring
apps before<br>
>> this
changes the
core code, so
anyone who has
the time
please do test
this<br>
>> and
let us know if
you notice
anything
change or
break, thanks!<br>
>><br>
>> On
Fri, Apr 24,
2015 at 3:38
PM, Maxwell,
Douglas CIV
USARMY ARL
(US) <<br>
>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
douglas.maxwell3.civ@mail.mil</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>>
Classification:
UNCLASSIFIED<br>
>>>
Caveats: NONE<br>
>>><br>
>>>
What you saw
were just
warnings about
white spaces.
The patch
should<br>
>>>
still<br>
>>>
apply and
work. We
follows the
open simulator
patch creation
guidance<br>
>>>
explicitly, if
you guys have
updated
instructions
for how you
want this<br>
>>>
done -<br>
>>>
let us know.
Otherwise, you
can ignore the
warnings.<br>
>>><br>
>>>
v/r -douglas<br>
>>><br>
>>>
Douglas
Maxwell, MSME<br>
>>>
Science and
Technology
Manager<br>
>>>
Virtual World
Strategic
Applications<br>
>>>
U.S. Army
Research Lab<br>
>>>
Simulation
& Training
Technology
Center (STTC)<br>
>>>
(c) <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank"
value="+14072420209">
(407) 242-0209</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
>>>
From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a><br>
>>>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@opensimulator.org</a>]
On Behalf Of
Michael Emory<br>
>>>
Cerquoni<br>
>>>
Sent: Friday,
April 24, 2015
2:38 PM<br>
>>>
To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
>>>
Subject: Re:
[Opensim-dev]
MOSES patch
submitted<br>
>>><br>
>>>
please check
the mantis, i
had some
trouble
applying patch
for testing,<br>
>>>
thanks<br>
>>>
guys!<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
On Fri, Apr
24, 2015 at
1:30 PM,
Michael
Heilmann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">mheilman@ist.ucf.edu</a>><br>
>>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
Opensim
Devs<br>
>>><br>
>>>
Just an
FYI, mantis
bug #7540 is
the first code
submission
from<br>
>>>
project<br>
>>>
MOSES.
Thanks.<br>
>>><br>
>>>
--<br>
>>>
Michael
Heilmann<br>
>>>
Research
Associate<br>
>>>
Institute for
Simulation and
Training<br>
>>>
University of
Central
Florida<br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>
Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>>>
<blockedhttp://<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
--<br>
>>><br>
>>>
Michael Emory
Cerquoni<br>
>>><br>
>>>
Classification:
UNCLASSIFIED<br>
>>>
Caveats: NONE<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>>
Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
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>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>>
Michael Emory
Cerquoni<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
>
Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div>Michael
Emory Cerquoni</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset
target="_blank"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Opensim-dev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div>Michael Emory Cerquoni</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset target="_blank"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Opensim-dev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">Michael Emory Cerquoni</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader" target="_blank"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Opensim-dev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx" target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Opensim-dev mailing list</span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a></span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a></span><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Opensim-dev mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org">Opensim-dev@opensimulator.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev">http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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