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It's not our job to tell which version of mono people should use to
run opensim. There are way too many Linux flavors out there with
different monos, and each person running OpenSim has their own
constraints and goals. Ideally, ppl should be able to use any
version of mono they want/need. However, due to some serious bugs
that happen in mono and then get fixed, and that obviously affect
OpenSim, we need to impose/recommend a lower bound. That is the case
with the situation that Justin described.<br>
<br>
Mono 2.6 worked well for me, and I would use again it if I had to --
for example, if I had to deal with an inflexibly old version of
Linux. Mono 2.8 was a disaster in, at least, Ubuntu. Mono 2.10 works
well again. The improvements in mono are not monotonic...<br>
<br>
I don't see that many bug reports whose cause is old versions of
mono -- at least not when compared to the total number of bug
reports. They happen from time to time, but it's not that big of a
deal, and they certainly don't consume any developer's cycles in any
significant way.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/2013 1:07 AM, M.E. Verhagen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+RcaTS7qxtXm-TL3Q5k+UJ1qK9otv-hO-KgoP9zZfE7r=+J0Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Is it possible te test what the impact on the performance
of opensim is when it uses mono 2.10 or even mono 3.0
instead of mono 2.6 ?<br>
<br>
</div>
For most linux systems it is no longer an issue to upgrade
mono. In the past it was, but time changes. <br>
<br>
</div>
I think opensim should go for performance and not the lowest
possible version.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/1/27 Ilan Tochner <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ilan@kitely.com"
target="_blank">ilan@kitely.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">We use Linux too and have downloaded and used
versions of mono that were not officially supported by the
distro/version we used. There are alternative repositories
people can use that are just a Google search away.<br>
<br>
IMO, supporting outdated mono versions is a luxury we
can't afford in our volunteer-based project where the few
developers that contribute code are focused on modern mono
versions.<br>
<br>
We won't be spending resources on supporting old mono
versions but I assume from your reply that you will be. As
you are one of the people who help move OpenSim forward,
this use of your time will negatively effect most OpenSim
users as your time could have been much better spent
improving OpenSim for modern versions of mono (I'm being
liberal calling the 2 year old mono 2.10 release modern).<br>
<br>
Your time, your decision but your choice to spend it on
outdated middleware will negatively effect OpenSim's
progress. It really is your call, I've said my say about
the subject.
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<br>
Ilan Tochner<br>
Co-Founder and CEO<br>
Kitely Ltd.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:26
PM, Melanie <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com" target="_blank">melanie@t-data.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Since you have already stated that you will not
support older<br>
versions, our decision will not affect you in any
way.<br>
<br>
We have, for a long time, used mono 2.4 as the
base simply because<br>
versions of distros in common use don't offer it
as part of their<br>
repo. OpenSim targets not only Windows users but
all operating<br>
systems, including Linux. As long as people use
versions of Linux<br>
that don't natively supply 2.10, we cannot make it
our baseline.<br>
That is simply not open for discussion.<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
Melanie<br>
</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
On 27/01/2013 21:56, Ilan Tochner wrote:<br>
> That's all well and good but saying we
support mono version 2.6 and<br>
> actually supporting it are two very
different things.<br>
><br>
> Who here is willing to spend their time
fixing problems that only appear in<br>
> versions before mono 2.10? (this isn't a
rhetorical question, if you are<br>
> willing to commit to doing so then please
reply and let the group know)<br>
><br>
> If anyone is, do you think that doing so
is better use of our limited<br>
> development resources than telling the
person who had the problem to just<br>
> upgrade to a slightly more modern version
of mono that can be easily<br>
> installed?<br>
><br>
> It makes sense not to drop support for
old operating systems, as they<br>
> usually can't be easily upgraded, but
installing a newer version of mono is<br>
> very simple when there are repositories
you can just apt get / rpm it from.<br>
><br>
> What exactly will be served by saying
mono 2.6 is supported when no one<br>
> will invest (waste?) their time debugging
for it? Wouldn't our users be<br>
> better served by having OpenSim run as
best as it can (given our limited<br>
> resources) on a better performing version
of mono that those users can<br>
> easily install?<br>
><br>
> I know Kitely won't be spending resources
on debugging for old mono<br>
> releases so my only horse in this is
wanting OpenSim to advance as quickly<br>
> as it can without leaving people behind.
Setting mono 2.10 as the baseline<br>
> makes it easier for this open source dev
community to accomplish this goal.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Ilan Tochner<br>
> Co-Founder and CEO<br>
> Kitely Ltd.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Melanie
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com"
target="_blank">melanie@t-data.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> It has always been our policy to use
the _lowest_ version of Mono<br>
>> that we can get by on to support the
largest possible number of<br>
>> configurations and systems.<br>
>><br>
>> This is not going to change.<br>
>><br>
>> The feature required by recent code
additions is found in Mono 2.6,<br>
>> so we are discussing Mono 2.6 now. We
are not discussing Mono 2.10.<br>
>><br>
>> Melanie<br>
>><br>
>> On 27/01/2013 15:32, Ilan Tochner
wrote:<br>
>> > If, as we both agree, OpenSim
works differently with different versions<br>
>> of<br>
>> > mono then people are going to
report bugs that exist when OpenSim is run<br>
>> on<br>
>> > mono versions prior to 2.10 that
don't exist with mono version 2.10 and<br>
>> > later.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > How many people are there in the
OpenSim dev community that still<br>
>> actively<br>
>> > use a mono version prior to
2.10? In fact, AFAIK, many devs are already<br>
>> > looking to see when they can
safely move to mono 3.0. So, who is going to<br>
>> > work on fixing bugs that no
longer exist with mono 2.10 and later? If no<br>
>> > ones is going to work on doing
that then we can't honestly say that mono<br>
>> > 2.6 or 2.8 are still supported.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > If we intend to have new OpenSim
users, we should have them using the<br>
>> mono<br>
>> > version with which they'll get
the best experience with the existing /<br>
>> > future code base. It doesn't
help anyone if they use an outdated version<br>
>> of<br>
>> > mono and find that the problems
they encounter aren't going to be<br>
>> addressed<br>
>> > because they no longer exist
with newer versions of mono.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Cheers,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Ilan Tochner<br>
>> > Co-Founder and CEO<br>
>> > Kitely Ltd.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 2:36 PM,
Dahlia Trimble <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dahliatrimble@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dahliatrimble@gmail.com</a><br>
>> >wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> Nobody is asking you to use
an older version. The minimum version is<br>
>> >> simply the earliest version
that would be required to run OpenSimulator.<br>
>> >> Anyone is free to use any
later version if they so choose.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> It's also not true that
later versions are necessarily better. I've<br>
>> >> personally had to disable
features in OpenSimulator and remove them from<br>
>> >> core due to newer versions
of Mono which introduced new bugs that made<br>
>> such<br>
>> >> features unusable.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 1:05
AM, Ilan Tochner <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ilan@kitely.com"
target="_blank">ilan@kitely.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>> Mono 2.10 was released
Feb 15th, 2011, i.e almost two years ago. I<br>
>> don't<br>
>> >>> think there is any
target platform that mono 2.6 runs on that
doesn't<br>
>> have<br>
>> >>> mono 2.10 working on it
as well.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> There have been many bug
fixes in mono between the 2.6 release and the<br>
>> >>> 2.10 release, some of
which can definitely effect OpenSim
performance<br>
>> and<br>
>> >>> stability. Who would
choose to use the older mono version when a<br>
>> better one<br>
>> >>> has been available for
at least two years? If someone reports a
problem<br>
>> >>> with OpenSim I think we
should require them to at least test it using<br>
>> mono<br>
>> >>> 2.10 so we can rule out
the older mono being the cause of the problem.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Cheers,<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Ilan Tochner<br>
>> >>> Co-Founder and CEO<br>
>> >>> Kitely Ltd.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at
4:28 AM, Dahlia Trimble <<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dahliatrimble@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dahliatrimble@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>>> I think the point is
raise it to the minimum version which supports<br>
>> the<br>
>> >>>> codebase. If there
was some feature in 2.10 that did not exist in
2.6<br>
>> and<br>
>> >>>> that feature was
required for proper execution, then 2.10 would
be a<br>
>> better<br>
>> >>>> target. Otherwise it
would just be forcing people to upgrade who<br>
>> would not<br>
>> >>>> otherwise need to.<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> There's nothing
stopping anyone from upgrading to 2.10 if they
desire,<br>
>> >>>> however, requiring a
higher version than is really necessary limits<br>
>> >>>> potential users of
the software to those who are able to install
those<br>
>> >>>> versions in their
setups. If a goal of OpenSimulator developers
is<br>
>> wide<br>
>> >>>> adoption, then it
makes sense to have it be usable on as many
existing<br>
>> >>>> hardware/software
configurations as possible.<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013
at 11:51 AM, Ilan Tochner <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ilan@kitely.com"
target="_blank">ilan@kitely.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>>> I second setting
2.10 as the base. If we'll be forcing people
to<br>
>> >>>>> upgrade I think
we should upgrade to the latest stable release
and<br>
>> not to<br>
>> >>>>> one that is
outdated.<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> If OpenSim works
fine with 3.0 then I'd vote for it to be the
base.<br>
>> If<br>
>> >>>>> we're still
calling OpenSim alpha we should at least get
the<br>
>> benefits of<br>
>> >>>>> doing so.
Supporting old versions of mono is a waste of
developer<br>
>> resources.<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> Cheers,<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> Ilan Tochner<br>
>> >>>>> Co-Founder and
CEO<br>
>> >>>>> Kitely Ltd.<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 26,
2013 at 9:20 PM, Trinity <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trinity93@gmail.com"
target="_blank">trinity93@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> if we can
get a way with it why not go to 2.10 else
quickly be out<br>
>> of<br>
>> >>>>>> date agian<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan
26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, James Hughes <<br>
>> >>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jamesh@bluewallgroup.com"
target="_blank">jamesh@bluewallgroup.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>> +1<br>
>> >>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>> On
01/24/2013 10:29 PM, Justin Clark-Casey wrote:<br>
>> >>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>>>
Whilst writing JsonStore regression tests this
evening, I hit the<br>
>> >>>>>>>>
problem where modInvoke script methods of more
than 4 parameters<br>
>> >>>>>>>>
cannot<br>
>> >>>>>>>> be
registered on Mono 2.4.3 as it doesn't
implement the required<br>
>> >>>>>>>>
larger<br>
>> >>>>>>>>
multi-parameter Func generic types.<br>
>> >>>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>>>
Therefore, I want to bump the minimum Mono
version for<br>
>> OpenSimulator<br>
>> >>>>>>>> up<br>
>> >>>>>>>> to
2.6 which was released more than 3 years ago.
This also<br>
>> involves<br>
>> >>>>>>>>
bumping the minimum .net framework version up
to 4.0, as also<br>
>> >>>>>>>>
detailed<br>
>> >>>>>>>> at
[1]<br>
>> >>>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>>> [1]
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://opensimulator.org/**mantis/view.php?id=5971"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/**mantis/view.php?id=5971</a><<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=5971"
target="_blank">http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=5971</a>><br>
>> >>>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>>> Any
comments?<br>
>> >>>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>>
______________________________**_________________<br>
>> >>>>>>>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
>> >>>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> >>>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/**mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/**mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>><br>
>> >>>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >>>>>> Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
>> >>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> >>>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >>>>> Opensim-dev
mailing list<br>
>> >>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> >>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >>>> Opensim-dev mailing
list<br>
>> >>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> >>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >>> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
>> >>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> >>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
>> >> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> >> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> >
_______________________________________________<br>
>> > Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
>> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
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href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
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href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev"
target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
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