On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:53 AM, James Stallings II <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:james.stallings@gmail.com">james.stallings@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Kyle tells it like it is :)<div><div class="h5"><br>
</div></div></blockquote><br>
No, Kyle tells it as he sees it and I respect that.<br>
<br>
Right now invite 100 people, no 10, no, just 1 person to go to
<a href="http://opensimulator.org">opensimulator.org</a> and tell them to follow the directions provided on
the site and have them run an opensim server. They cannot do it. Pure
and simple. I know because I directed dozens, if not hundreds of
people to <a href="http://opensimulator.org">opensimulator.org</a> off my own full island I had in Second Life
(Liberia Cove) dedicated to telling others about penSim. Not one single person was able to get OpenSim
running without considerable assistance from me and others.<br>
<br>
This one single issue is the core of what bothers me above all
others. And yes, one can create an account and "edit the pages"
oneself. But one cannot edit something one does not already
understand, right?<br>
<br>
If you have never built a coal mine then how would you be able to
write its instruction manual? To this day I have barely a working
knowledge of OpenSim and that has been greatly facilitated by Diva through
the diva distribution and assistance I've received from patrons of
OSGrid (which I've paid to receive help from as it seemed the only way
to get anyone to talk with me seriously on these issues is to fork over cash, and lots of it)<br>
<br>
Interestingly enough, the only version of OpenSim I have ever been able
to get running entirely from raw code through compilation was 0.6.5.1
and I miss those days almost every day. It was so simple anyone with
basic pc understanding could run a server from scratch and I witnessed
it time and again. I'd even wrote a manual on running OpenSim and MySQL entirely portably and it worked flawlessly. No changes had to be made to a pc and I was working on a version that worked on Windows, Mac and Linux when 0.6.6 came out and broke everything (I do not blame anyone for that, but am upset I could not get anyone to help me fix the problems).<br>
<br>
I REALLY DO want to contribute and have a huge stake in this and financial gain is NOT my goal and never has been. I am just one who despises anything but the plain truth and simple facts. KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. An important motto.<br>
<br> My entire life revolves around sitting in front of a computer. Actually, for me, about 80% of the time I'm laying in front of mine. Believe me when I say that my life depends on computers in more ways than you could imagine. OpenSim has been my "cheap-alternative" breath of fresh air from Second Life and I take it personally when I read that OpenSim is not intended as an alternative to Second Life when it most obviously is - <u>to me</u>. And that is what matters.<br>
<br><b> Can we not seemingly "put the brakes on" everything and work on the site, the very first place most people see when they search for "open simulator"? It should be clean, clear, simple, friendly, and above all, point directly to answers, solutions, simple resolutions to the main reason why the multitude come to <a href="http://opensimulator.org">opensimulator.org</a> - <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">to download it, install it, and use it.</span><br>
<br>Why must that be so difficult?</b><br>
<br>
- Len W. Brown<br>
<a href="mailto:lenwbrown@gmail.com">lenwbrown@gmail.com</a> <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kyle <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:create@reactiongrid.com">create@reactiongrid.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Thanks James, great idea Jeroen. In fact on a last note on this subject I feel the people having success with the platform (our company for example) need to be concerned the Opensim devs do not leave US!<br>
<br>
For this reason we are trying to spread work around to other dev's who may be focused on creating a platform and not profit focused. What if we lose THEM? Shudders....<br>
<br>
Get involved, don't bail. We need those bailing to stick around, we're too close to changing the world to give up now...<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>] On Behalf Of Jeroen van Veen<br>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:02 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project<br>
<br>
Wishlist 2010:<br>
* dump sl-client support<br>
* embrace naali<br>
<br>
Jeroen<br>
<br>
On Monday 23 November 2009 14:53:53 James Stallings II wrote:<br>
> Kyle tells it like it is :)<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Kyle <<a href="mailto:create@reactiongrid.com">create@reactiongrid.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > I would like to thank the Opensim developers for producing an amazingly<br>
> > stable Alpha in a couple of years sans millions or even thousands of $$<br>
> > of critically needed capital that most development teams have for such a<br>
> > large project. Some people feel the core developers and other testers,<br>
> > builders etc have not done enough to further the project in certain areas<br>
> > and yet this is exactly why the developers are so concerned with building<br>
> > a platform for solutions for you to build upon, not a solution in itself.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Why did they choose this path of pluggable architecture and not deliver a<br>
> > solution in their vision? Because they have a vision bigger than that,<br>
> > they envision a community rallying around their hard work on the core of<br>
> > this system who add in their own needed elements on top of the base being<br>
> > created. To complain that you have not made a profit from the hard work<br>
> > of the volunteer developers shows a distinct lack of appreciation and a<br>
> > lack of personal motivation to get things done as an individual working<br>
> > with a larger group.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I myself experiment with Unity3D to handle some things OpenSim does not<br>
> > focus on. However the magic of Opensim, easy user created content, is no<br>
> > trivial matter to recreate elsewhere. Most do not understand the<br>
> > difficult architecture of building a real-time, user created system. To<br>
> > make any other platform do this aspect is no trivial task which is why<br>
> > Opensim is the only alternative out there to SL (same company that<br>
> > promised an opensource server).<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > So if you are leaving because an extensible platform that took years for<br>
> > volunteers to get has not catered to your specific needs then you missed<br>
> > the point of community. IBM has not left Opensim I talk to them<br>
> > regularly and they are extremely motivated to see this project succeed.<br>
> > In fact those leaving are missing 2010, which I feel is going to be a<br>
> > banner year for Opensim.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > While I understand the frustration of the lack of features vs SL and<br>
> > others I also understand the magic of, for example, a teacher and<br>
> > student building concepts together with easy to use, affordable tools.<br>
> > This community has given freely and I for one bow in respect to these<br>
> > gracious, giving and dedicated developers and testers and understand the<br>
> > incredibly complex job they face. Kudos Opensim we are with you for the<br>
> > long term….<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *From:* <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a> [mailto:<br>
> > <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>] *On Behalf Of *Len Brown<br>
> > *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2009 9:14 AM<br>
> ><br>
> > *To:* <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > If the goal of OpenSim is to be incompatible with everyone elses vision<br>
> > then I too have little further interest in the project.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I'd hoped after IBM dropped OpenSim like a hot potato that the devs would<br>
> > realize the err of their ways and come round to a manageable and<br>
> > collaborative progression from then on, but unfortunately that doesn't<br>
> > seem to be the case.<br>
> ><br>
> > If the goal of OpenSim is to be "something different" but without any aim<br>
> > towards mass acceptance and compatibility than I too feel my time is<br>
> > wasted. I have spent 8 to 12 hours a day for many weeks tediously<br>
> > copying hundreds of items from my stores and shops in Second Life to my<br>
> > private home-hosted OpenSim regions foolishly believing that they will<br>
> > remain compatible through OpenSim's future progression and that I could<br>
> > in turn share a good portion of my work with others since my desire for<br>
> > investment has been repeatedly turned down.<br>
> ><br>
> > I wish you all the best on your path.<br>
> ><br>
> > - Len W. Brown<br>
> > <a href="mailto:lenwbrown@gmail.com">lenwbrown@gmail.com</a><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:31 AM, J Ross Nicoll <<br>
> > <a href="mailto:jrn2005@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk">jrn2005@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I think the point about OpenSim not being Second Life needs to be<br>
> > expanded to point out there are things attempting to be more of a<br>
> > complete solution. realXtend ( <a href="http://www.realxtend.org/" target="_blank">http://www.realxtend.org/</a> ), Reaction Grid<br>
> > (<br>
> > <a href="http://www.reactiongrid.com/" target="_blank">http://www.reactiongrid.com/</a> ) and SpotON3D ( <a href="https://spoton3d.com/" target="_blank">https://spoton3d.com/</a> ) all<br>
> > spring to mind here.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > In terms of configuration, are you aware you can edit the Wiki yourself?<br>
> > You'll need to create an account and be logged in, then you should see an<br>
> > "Edit" link at the top of the page.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > In terms of donating money... the problem is a lack of a clear<br>
> > organisation to pay. However, I suspect a few people will do coding for<br>
> > hire if you have a specific feature request or bug fix wanted (Justin<br>
> > Clark-Casey <a href="http://justincc.org/blog/hire-me/" target="_blank">http://justincc.org/blog/hire-me/</a> being the most likely<br>
> > candidate). Try e-mailing the mailing list asking for a quote for a<br>
> > specific problem you're having to be fixed?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 23 Nov 2009, at 13:06, Len Brown wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Rock,<br>
> ><br>
> > I sympathize with you on many levels. I've also had my doubts<br>
> > regarding the future of OpenSim, but I have also maintained some degree<br>
> > of faith that things will pull through in the end.<br>
> ><br>
> > For me the shock came when I was abruptly informed that "OpenSim is<br>
> > not Second Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor ever will."<br>
> > I still haven't the foggiest idea what this developer had smoked for them<br>
> > to so strongly assert that incredibly false statement.<br>
> ><br>
> > For me, the enjoyment of OpenSim has come from my intense devotion<br>
> > to building and skinning. In fact, for the last few months I've been<br>
> > working on a full region that has many hundreds of skins, clothes, hair,<br>
> > furniture, etc, etc, that I'd like to package up as an OAR and give out<br>
> > freely, since repeatedly I've been told that instead of giving money to<br>
> > help further OpenSim I'd do more proactively by giving content. So I<br>
> > plan to do just that and give my money to other open source initiatives<br>
> > that matter to me.<br>
> ><br>
> > I have a passion for writing, and have thought many times that one<br>
> > of the greatest powers OpenSim would gain is having simple,<br>
> > straightforward, step-by-step instructions on how to download, compile,<br>
> > install, administer and overall just plain operate the core applications.<br>
> > What kills me is that everyone who does a search for OpenSim inevitably<br>
> > hits the<br>
> > <a href="http://opensimulator.org" target="_blank">opensimulator.org</a> site and that is where the massive roadblock presents<br>
> > itself. It's useless for most and irrelevant to the few who consider<br>
> > themselves OpenSim experts.<br>
> ><br>
> > Heck, even now on the configuration page it still displays info for<br>
> > 0.6.6 including (months old) known bugs in setting up region xml files.<br>
> > If there was appointed a volunteer whose sole job was to keep information<br>
> > on <a href="http://opensimulator.org" target="_blank">opensimulator.org</a> relevant that one task would resolve a mountain of<br>
> > negativity right there. I sit here in front of my computers a good 10 to<br>
> > 12 hours a day.<br>
> ><br>
> > I would sincerely love to contribute to the OpenSim project,<br>
> > especially in documentation support. But the thing holding me back is<br>
> > communication. If I cannot get a straight answer on who to GIVE money to<br>
> > in order to help, then I stand little chance of getting clear, straight<br>
> > answers from developers when asking about issues I need to consider and<br>
> > incorporate in documentation.<br>
> ><br>
> > If communication is a hurdle we can all overcome, with a genuine and<br>
> > heart-felt effort to relay information, motives, and plans with one<br>
> > another, then I'd sincerely appreciate having the opportunity to<br>
> > personally contribute. I'm not a programmer today, but have a degree in<br>
> > programming fro the 90's (so much has changed my degree is practically<br>
> > useless in that regard). But I do know how to explain things and relay<br>
> > information in simple terms. But only if my own questions will be<br>
> > answered with more than "look it up or figure it out yourself" as my<br>
> > answer.<br>
> ><br>
> > If any of you would appreciate my help, feel free to let me know at<br>
> > any time and I'll do what I can.<br>
> ><br>
> > - Len W. Brown<br>
> > <a href="mailto:lenwbrown@gmail.com">lenwbrown@gmail.com</a><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Colin B. Withers <<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int">Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi guys,<br>
> ><br>
> > I have decided to leave the Opensim project. You will probably not even<br>
> > notice if I leave, as not being a programmer my only inputs were the<br>
> > writing of the step-by-step tutorials (<br>
> > <a href="http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/</a>), the drafts of the OpenSim<br>
> > User Manual on the Forge, and helping out in the IRC channels, for<br>
> > newcomers.<br>
> ><br>
> > You may find my reasons for leaving Opensim interesting though (and<br>
> > please do not construe any of my reasons as an attack on anyone).<br>
> ><br>
> > 1. The Platform<br>
> > I raised this several times in the past in IRC, and made posts on my blog<br>
> > about the product lifecycle of the platform (<br>
> > <a href="http://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html" target="_blank">http://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html</a><br>
> >). I believe that the platforms underpinning both Second Life and Opensim<br>
> > are quite long in the tooth now, and I questioned how much product<br>
> > lifecycle there was left, particularly given that Opensim is now nearing<br>
> > 3 years of development, is still in Alpha, and if the current release of<br>
> > 0.6.7 is any indicator, then still only around two thirds into the<br>
> > development cycle. With the (inevitable) coming of much superior<br>
> > platforms, such as Blue Mars and (as a virtual world); Unity, for<br>
> > browser-based Virtual Wolrds; and now UDK (for creating sandboxes,<br>
> > standalones, and open grids), then I fear that Opensim has missed the<br>
> > boat as far as the remaining lifecycle of the platform is concerned. When<br>
> > you show people what is possible with these engines (for example this<br>
> > avatar editor for the forthcom<br>
> > ing APB (using the Unreal Engine):<br>
> > <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icR3LtEMvZI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icR3LtEMvZI</a> or this city:<br>
> > <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLzNbPXMDg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLzNbPXMDg</a> (using the CryEngine), then<br>
> > neither SL not Opensim stands comparison.<br>
> ><br>
> > 2. Lack of Support for Currency in Opensim<br>
> > I felt the impact of this when I first made the switch from SL to<br>
> > Opensim. I had a thriving RP sim in SL (over 50 people, mainly female)<br>
> > and they all agreed to follow me over to my Opensim and the OSGrid.<br>
> > However, within a month they had all left, citing the same reason, the<br>
> > lack of places to shop, to buy the quality stuff they wanted (skins,<br>
> > hair, clothes etc), as a quality appearance, and the fun of shopping is<br>
> > what all the females placed high on their requirements from a Virtual<br>
> > World. They drifted back to Second Life, and the guys followed them. I<br>
> > have always believed that the lack of support for currency in the core<br>
> > was a mistake, but that is just my opinion.<br>
> ><br>
> > 3. Marketing<br>
> > I have also raised this issue several times, and blogged about it. It is<br>
> > far from clear just who an eventually released Opensim is actually aimed<br>
> > at. I think that any company that is interested in a firewalled corporate<br>
> > solution to collaboration and prototyping will already be looking at the<br>
> > Enterprise solution that is currently available from Second Life; that<br>
> > any indie group that is thinking of running a themed grid will need an<br>
> > economy to stay viable; and any individual who is looking for a private<br>
> > sandbox solution for their SL work will need full compatibility (which is<br>
> > not the case with the OS version of LSL diverging from the SL LSL). So,<br>
> > just who is the platform aimed at? I was also very disappointed in the<br>
> > view of one of the core devs who said that 'marketing is a null concept<br>
> > for us'.<br>
> ><br>
> > I am currently designing and creating cities for Blue Mars, and involved<br>
> > in a team for proving the UDK as a platform for the design and creation<br>
> > of Virtual Worlds (as opposed to purely games), and with so much<br>
> > documentation available for these mature engines (particularly for the<br>
> > UDK, Blue Mars lags behind somewhat in that department, but have hired<br>
> > extra staff to put that right), I am achieving the productivity I want,<br>
> > building the worlds that I want, with stable crash-free platforms.<br>
> ><br>
> > However, I do wish the Opensim team the very best in their endeavours,<br>
> > and I sincerely hope their goals are eventually achieved.<br>
> ><br>
> > If anyone would like to take over the Opensim Tutorials pages at<br>
> > <a href="http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/</a> and<br>
> > <a href="http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspot.com/</a> (they will need some updating<br>
> > following several changes) then I am more than willing to pass the posts<br>
> > over, and of course the Opensim User Manual is there in the Forge for<br>
> > anyone to develop further.<br>
> ><br>
> > Best Regards and Good Luck<br>
> ><br>
> > Rock<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Please CC all MMS related e-mails to <a href="mailto:fixit-mms@st-andrews.ac.uk">fixit-mms@st-andrews.ac.uk</a>.<br>
> ><br>
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> ><br>
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