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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Just a couple of corrections:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have heard no ‘rage’ from any core dev over the
concept of an “OpenCurrency” project. On the contrary, that is what
we want to see happen, preferably several currency projects targeting different
usage models and catering for differing audiences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Whether or not currency management hosted by the core repository
is pivotal for the success of OpenSim or not is a matter of opinion. In my
opinion, if that would be the case, that would be a sad prospect for OpenSim indeed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Managing an economic points system is no more central to OpenSim
than it is for the Apache web server. It might be pivotal for certain implementations
based on OpenSim, like it would be for certain e-commerce sites running on
Apache, but not for OpenSim itself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The OpenSim core devs has repeatedly stated that we are willing
to add whatever reasonable hooks any currency module would reasonably need into
the core. Please open mantis issues and attach your patches, and we’ll review
them like any other patch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I fail to see the need to ‘fork’ the entire code
base over this kind of issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The Rex team forked before the OpenSim core were even aware of
them. The issue was whether to re-incorporate their codebase into core,
something that was decided against in the end. From what I can see, both
projects have continued to run in parallel just fine, each free to pursue their
specific development goals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There has been mailings before pointing to existing currency
module code bases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>A friendly suggestion though; it’s probably not the best
way to start your fledgling currency project passing remarks discrediting core
devs and their motifs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>/Stefan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Malewski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 21 juli 2009 12:18<br>
<b>To:</b> opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual
currency system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual
real-world currency).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have
"virtual currencies" and things such as "virtual money" and
"Godfather points" in their Mafia Wars games, and all of their other
various games.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of
"virtual currency" or points system. There is no argument
concerning "virtual currency" as being unsecure, or inappropriate or
any form of liability.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to
secure e-commerce (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement
secure commerce.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>First off, the "points" in the game, are nothing
more than that. They are just points. I've lost items (through
"gifting") before on other online games, and it's really no big deal.
Tech support normally "makes things right". But this is
not a liability issue as much as this seems to be a "money making"
issue.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>There seem to be some developers (in the core dev team) that
may or may not want to offer their OWN e-commerce system (as a service/money
making opportunity). So I can understand their rage in the concept of
someone creating an "OpenCurrency" project, because they may feel
that it's a loss of opportunity for them to sell a product (if someone gives it
away for free, as in air). Ultimately I feel that a points/virtual currency
system is vital to OpenSim's success. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I believe e-commerce is an important part of Virtual World
development, just as e-commerce is an important part of the web. Trying to have
a virtual world without any form of e-commerce is similar to having an internet
without any form of e-commerce.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I've seen payment gateways for virtual worlds dating all the
way back to 1996 (Active Worlds) and designing the core (securely) from the
ground up, so that it could handle a virtual "points" system would
seem to make sense. You don't need to build a mamoth of secure servers,
as PayPal already does much of that for you. It would seem that just a
simple module that would work hand in hand with PayPal's API would suffice.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Linden dollars are nothing more than a points system.
Whether you choose to call it Karma points, or currency, or virtual dollars,
whatever the case... it's still points. It's NOT real money, it's NOT
real cash, it's just points. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It would seem to make sense to create a separate
OpenCurrency project as Aldon suggested, as this seems to be an EXTREMELY
important piece of the OpenSim project. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Designing a virtual world system (like OpenSim) without any
form of points systems (Karma, Currency, or whatever you wish to call it) would
be similar to designing a computer without a monitor, keyboard or mouse.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I understand the concept of having a 3D Virtual Chatroom
(for educational purposes and online learning) but 3D portals (such as
Linden's) where people come together, talk, chat, play online games, and engage
in trading, etc. some form of points or commerce system is critical.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>If Core doesn't want to take part in the project (because
they have their own vested interests in their own personal ventures) then it
may be in the best interests of the Open Source Community to start a separate
Open Source "OpenCurrency" project, that is a separate entity from
Core, and it seems completely stupid to have to branch off and create a
separate fork, but if this is what the Core Devs want is a separate fork, then
so be it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>RealXtend has had to fork, and it seems to hurt the
OpenSource project as a whole, because the forks eventually run independently
of one another. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It would seem to make more sense to just make the
"OpenCurrency" project a part of OpenSim core (as a module) that can
easily be enabled/disabled by just installing the module, and
enabling/disabling a flag in the OpenSim.ini configuration file.
Something that will just allow the transfer of points between users in
the virtual world.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I believe something as simple as OS$ (open sim points, or
open sim virtual dollars) would be sufficient, similar to Linden's
implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span>"I believe you are aware
that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a
year." Was not aware of that, but that's very good to know.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It would be good to create a separate
"OpenCurrency" project, and if it's something that the core OpenSim
developers don't wish to take part in, then maybe it can be something that can
be developed and added to the RealXtend module and the RealXtend crew has done
a fine job of adding additional features, but either way we should be able to
create a separate "OpenCurrency" project independent of the OpenSim
project, and possibly even work hand in hand with the RealXtend developers, as
a virtual currency and/or virtual point system really would be crucial in online
gaming, and virtual social networks (the ability to exchange & transfer
points, and objects/items between users).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It would seem that Core Dev are being very narrow (and
closed) minded concerning the idea of a points/karma system, but I would love
to see an OpenCurrency project started by a separate group, and something that
can easily be added (as a free module) to the OpenSim core.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>><span class=apple-style-span>I will, if you can prove
you know enough about computer security</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span>> and writing secure code.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I'm not a developer, I'm a computer/network security
engineer but I could at least help with alpha/beta testing, and work on
attacks, vulnerability testing and security audits if need be (so that we can
work on improving the product). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I really do think that an "OpenCurrency" project
would be great for the OpenSim Community (and probably the number one, and most
requested feature for OpenSim). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I'd be more than happy to join in on helping with the
"OpenCurrency" project in any way that I can (such as technical
writing, WIKI documentation, tutorials, and vulnerability/alpha/beta testing).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The key point is to view OpenSim as a "Virtual Gaming
Platform" and without some form of points or Karma system, it really loses
out as a real interactive community network platform, and turns into a "3D
Chatroom" which has been done so many times before. What made SL so
different, was the ability to trade goods, items, and even points between
users. This is a very important aspect of Virtual Worlds, and it seems a key
piece that core devs want to leave out.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I guess the only solution is to create and form a separate
OpenCurrency project that is independent of the OpenSim project (similar to
RealXtend) and just work independently of the Core Devs on an
"OpenCurrency" project.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>As I stated previously, I'd be more than willing to help in
this venture. It seems that Melanie already has some work/implementation
that she has already started, maybe we can start an OpenSource
"OpenCurrency" project and build upon some of what Mel has already done,
or work on building something similar to what SL has done (using PayPal API's
as a gateway, and using Paypal to handle all the secure financial
transactions). This way the OpenCurrency server simply holds the
points/karma as just an item/object in the asset server? It would seem to
make sense to just have a currency value assigned to users. If objects
can be gifted between users (and not stolen) then I can't imagine the problem
with being unable to gift points between users. Some people like to act
like the sky is falling, and attempt to equate "points=cash" which
they do not. Many online games use a points system, including Zynga, and
SL. A small handful of devs want to act like the sky is falling anytime
you mention anything about a points system, but the code is still in the Alpha
stages, and this would be the best time to work on designing a module (from the
ground up) so that OpenSim could be made as a secure platform. It's
foolish to develop something without having the vision to make it secure, and
something that is expandable, and something that can easily accept a virtual
points/karma system.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Games such as "Mafia Wars" (that use virtual
points as part of the gaming experience) have well over 16.5+ Million active
users, with over 3.4 to 4 million active players each day. It would only
make sense to include a points system as part of OpenSim, and doesn't make any
sense at all to ignore such a key element in an online gaming or online virtual
platform. Some region/world operators may choose not to enable it, but it
still should be a part of core that could easily be enabled/disabled.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>If Core Devs don't want it to be a part of core, then we may
just have to start a separate OpenSource "OpenCurrency" project.
It may need to be a separate module, similar to what RealXtend is doing,
but I'm more than willing to help with the effort in any way that I can.
(Website development, Wiki documentation, technical writing, tutorials,
alpha/beta testing, vulnerability & penetration testing, etc.)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>
Mark<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>MCSA/MCSE:Security/CCNA/CCDA/CCDP/CHFI/ECSA/LPT/Security+<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Len Brown <<a
href="mailto:lenwbrown@gmail.com">lenwbrown@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I still experience an occasional hiccup with the Second Life
money system so i remain slightly wary of it. Since money transactions
remain a very buggy and unreliable thing when it comes to virtual worlds, I've
learned many new ways to make financial gains without any in-world monetary
implementations at all.<br>
<br>
At present I am gradually leasing out 25 regions from my own servers. I
simply request payment be made via PayPal within the first 7 days of each month
and thus far I've not experienced any issues at all. Everyone seems very
happy and I simplify things by only leasing out full regions rather than trying
to divide them up and lease out portions of regions.<br>
<br>
While an in-world money system would at times be nice, and eventually will come
into being through optional plugins, I am quite happy managing my virtual world
properties through PayPal payments.<br>
<br>
- Len W. Brown<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, J Ross Nicoll <<a
href="mailto:jrn2005@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk" target="_blank">jrn2005@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think this illustrates extremely well why most of the devs
don't want<br>
to touch a money system. Making a proper monetary system means ensuring<br>
that transactions happen, or do not, you can't get 7 copies of the same<br>
transaction that then have to be unpicked by hand. I wouldn't be averse<br>
to writing a money module if I had time (so, not this year), but I'd<br>
want to do it properly so you can't get into this sort of mess...<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
Len Brown wrote:<br>
<br>
> This reminds me of a situation I encountered in Second Life last<br>
> Autumn. I logged in on a Saturday morning and decided to sell a
piece<br>
> of land I no longer needed. I set the asking price at 10,000
Lindens.<br>
><br>
> Right about that time Linden Lad encountered a problem and began a<br>
> rolling restart of their servers. Somehow the money system got
"stuck"<br>
> and when someone bought my land it did not register with the Linden Lab<br>
> servers.<br>
><br>
> The result was that, over the course of the next 20 minutes 7 people<br>
> "bought" my land. When the dust settled I had one actual
owner of my<br>
> land and 7 actual purchases. As you might imagine, a lot of people
were<br>
> very angry that I got their Lindens and they got nothing in return.<br>
><br>
> I communicated to them all and tried to explain the situation but most<br>
> called me a liar since "this never happened before. I then
contacted<br>
> Linden Lab tech support (after waiting nearly an hour on hold) and was<br>
> told NOT to refund the Lindens as they would resolve the
"glitch."<br>
><br>
> After 24 hours and some very hostile people demanding their money back I<br>
> decided to go ahead and send each of them the 10,000 Lindens they gave<br>
> me. Almost a week later I logged in to find my account nearly 70,000<br>
> Lindens overdrawn!<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'>--<br>
The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No<br>
SC013532</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
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