<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<title>Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency</title>
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple id=MailContainerBody
name="Compose message area">
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Rock,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>An implementation of a functional monetary system has been
declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom
implementation/third party provider layer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the
line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module
creators and custom implementation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a
module, tailored for the specific use case, be created.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often
it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation
of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that
people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and
production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit
yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case,
but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature
code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want
to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world
risk policy decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I believe that the very absence of a money implementation
outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one
inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either
means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use
case specific for there to be any value for the general public.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain
needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything
could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>/Stefan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Colin B. Withers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 7 juli 2009 15:27<br>
<b>To:</b> opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have
it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core
solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms
are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has
been used by a US college for educational purposes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual
world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to
that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a
currency module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my
money" is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever
opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real
estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in
core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner
stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow
it) by use of a carefully worded TOS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Should the development of opensim be halted because someone
might claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost
US$$$" or "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing
several tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any
particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Rock<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into,
has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Hart<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Couldn't
disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have
it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more
than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around
running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage
correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you
want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there
that are properly regulated by financial services authorities.</span><span
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Money
should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's
on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to
have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with "your
code ate my money" complaints.</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Chris</span><span
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int"
title="mailto:Colin.Withers@eumetsat.int
CTRL + Click to follow link">Colin
B. Withers</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Monday,
July 06, 2009 1:30 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de"
title="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
CTRL + Click to follow link">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re:
[Opensim-dev] Currency<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'>Has this always been the case? Why
was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed?<br>
<br>
Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D
chatrooms.<br>
<br>
Rock<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de">mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>]
On Behalf Of Melanie<br>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency<br>
<br>
OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency<br>
implementation.<br>
<br>
Melanie<br>
<br>
Melvin Carvalho wrote:<br>
> Will currencies be distributed accross grids?<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikcmp2@gmail.com>
wrote:<br>
>> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my<br>
>> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY<br>
>> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help.<br>
>> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS<br>
>> bikcmp2@gmail.com<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPhone<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
>> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
>> <a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
>><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
> <a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
><br>
><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
<a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
<a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
<br>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: 07/05/09
17:54:00</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>