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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The whole list was moderated. See the announcement on Friday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But honestly, if you want to discuss C# licensing issues – speak
with the Mono folks first, they are a lot more well versed in this argument.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Adam<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>James
Stallings II<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 6 April 2009 5:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] [linux-elitists] Mono considered harmful<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I'd love to participate in this conversation further, but
for some reason I was placed on a 'must be moderated list' for participating in
a discussion that other devs clearly seem to think worthwhile.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:22 AM, Frisby, Adam <<a
href="mailto:adam@deepthink.com.au">adam@deepthink.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>No, Rotor predates Mono. It’s
old and somewhat non-functional now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Adam</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dzonatas<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 5 April 2009 10:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] [linux-elitists] Mono considered harmful<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Do you mean the one they made mainly for IronPython and IronRuby? I can dig
up the mail for that on the IronPython list, but it is mainly to keep OSS
source out of internal Microsoft boundaries where they want to make sure there
is no mix between internal code and external OSS code, as their stated
intention.<br>
<br>
<br>
Frisby, Adam wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>It's also worth noting that MS released a somewhat FOSS (I'm a little unsure which of their licenses they used and whether it's an OSI one or not) implementation of .NET for Linux called 'Rotor'.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Adam<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a
href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a> [<a
href="mailto:opensim-dev" target="_blank">mailto:opensim-dev</a>-<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>] On Behalf Of Frisby, Adam<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Sunday, 5 April 2009 8:59 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] [linux-elitists] Mono considered harmful<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Yeah, I did miss reasonable fees.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>However, it is widely believed that the Novell/MS pact disclaims these.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I would highly suggest bringing this one over to the Mono mailing list,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>they have a lot more experience dealing with these claims.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Adam<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a
href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a> [<a
href="mailto:opensim-dev" target="_blank">mailto:opensim-dev</a>-<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Sunday, 5 April 2009 11:34 AM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] [linux-elitists] Mono considered harmful<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen <a
href="mailto:rick@linuxmafia.com" target="_blank"><rick@linuxmafia.com></a> -----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Rick Moen <a
href="mailto:rick@linuxmafia.com" target="_blank"><rick@linuxmafia.com></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:44:08 -0700<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href="mailto:linux-elitists@zgp.org" target="_blank">linux-elitists@zgp.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] [Opensim-dev] Mono considered harmful<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Quoting Eugen Leitl (<a
href="mailto:eugen@leitl.org" target="_blank">eugen@leitl.org</a>):<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>IANAL, does below explanation by Adam hold water?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>You don't have to be a lawyer to know that it's rubbish on two<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>separate<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>grounds.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Yes, C# is an ECMA standard. However:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(1) It doesn't follow that ECMA International has any power to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>"forbid"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>patent holders from suing anyone over anything, let alone patent<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>infringement. I mean, think about it: Does Adam think ECMA<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>International is Microsoft Corporation's daddy? That it owns 51% of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>issued and outstanding common stock? At worst, it might be possible<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ECMA International to be very deeply disappointed in Microsoft's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>behaviour at some future point, decertify particular things, and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>otherwise carry out mild actions that _are_ within its power.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>More important:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(2) In any event, ECMA International does not even _profess_ to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>disapprove of suing patent infringers. It merely has a "Code of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Conduct<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>in Patent Matters"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(<a
href="http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/codeofconduct.htm"
target="_blank">http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/codeofconduct.htm</a>),<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>setting<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>ECMA policy that the group will approve standards only if it has<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>written<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assurances from applicant that applicable patents will be licensed on<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>"reasonable, non-discriminatory basis". (That term of art is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>typically<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>referred to as RAND terms.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Has Adam Frisby completely missed the last decade of standards<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>warfare?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>The proprietary camp has repeatedly attempted to get the World Wide<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>Web<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Consortium to start accepting "RAND" patent licensing, instead of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requiring that applicants certify that covering patents will be<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_royalty-free_. This arm-twisting failed, because of diligent<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>focussing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of attention from open source people. W3C has stuck to its guns and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>insistend on royalty-free patent licensing.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To spell it out: "Reasonable" means obligatory patent royalty<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>payments.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Which means no open source implementations of those standards.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>And that is one reason why ECMA standards can be (and often are)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>issued<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>on terms hostile to open source, whereas W3C standards are reliable<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>open-source-friendly.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sheesh.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cheers, Híggledy-pìggledy / XML programmers<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Rick Moen Try to escape those / I-eighteen-N woes;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:rick@linuxmafia.com" target="_blank">rick@linuxmafia.com</a> Incontrovertibly / What we need more of is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>McQ! (4x80) Unicode weenies and / François Yergeaus.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>linux-elitists mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:linux-elitists@zgp.org" target="_blank">linux-elitists@zgp.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://allium.zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists"
target="_blank">http://allium.zgp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>----- End forwarded message -----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Eugen* Leitl <a href=<a
href="http://leitl.org" target="_blank">"http://leitl.org"</a>>leitl</a> <a
href="http://leitl.org" target="_blank">http://leitl.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>______________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 <a
href="http://www.ativel.com" target="_blank">http://www.ativel.com</a> <a
href="http://postbiota.org" target="_blank">http://postbiota.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Opensim-dev mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Opensim-dev mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
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