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This is all good. Peer review is a big part of my job, and always a
good thing.<br>
<br>
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Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:49230E65.5010009@googlemail.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Sure, let's fix this to r7379.
Realistically, this is probably going to take somewhat longer than a few days. Other core members haven't really had
much of a chance to comment yet. Ideally I think we would take a weekend to give people who are busy with non-OpenSim
jobs during the week to take a look.
Also, I can only devote a certain fraction of my time to this, so it may take until the end of the week anyway if I'm
working on my own. Of course, any other assistance is very welcome. What I feel we really need is a short summary from
a third party on both the architectural features (pros and cons - there are almost always some cons with everything) and
an assessment of the implementation itself. Among other things, this would help us determine that we're happy to
support it in the future. For instance, is there an expectation that if I make a grid change, I now need to test it in
standalone, grid *and* hypergrid mode? We already see these issues with the bundled MSSQL database support where most
core developers only change MySQL and maybe SQLite (though luckily we now have some excellent people like
StrawberryFride and RuudL to help fix it up).
I feel that we should also be cautious because we have already had instances where flawed architectural changes have
made it in to OpenSim without any prior analysis or discussion. These cause consternation for a while until they can be
absorbed or pushed aside. I think spending a bit of time upfront on such big changes could save us a lot of time and
pain later on.
Cristina Videira Lopes wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">OK, I will do that, and thanks for looking into this.
Can we please fix the assessment of the hypergrid to 7379 for the next
day or so. Otherwise it's like trying to change the oil on a moving car :-)
Obviously, if this makes it to core, I will make a patch for whatever
head that will be, and taking into account whatever feedback is sent;
it's just the assessment process that I would like to fix, if possible.
Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I tried to apply the two patches and prebuild.xml in <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=2640">http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=2640</a> to r7379 today,
intending to fix up the LLSD name change issues.
However, there are various issues.
1. The original hypergrid-1.patch (which contains the bulk of the code) appears to list all diffs twice. So every file
ends up containing two copies of everything.
2. The second smaller follow up hypergrid-app.patch does not apply cleanly over hypergrid-1.patch.
3. The prebuild.xml does not list dependences in the correct order. For instance, HGOpenSimNode in
OpenSim.Region.Application has a dependency on HyperGrid which is only built after this package. You may have to do
some work to resolve circular dependencies. Please do a clean build to make sure everything resolves correctly.
Please could you fix these issues (and the LLSD -> OSD changes) and produce a new single patch containing all the code.
I recommend simply using svn diff >my.patch from the command line on cygwin/linux/mac if Tortoise SVN is playing up.
Then we can evaluate this properly.
Thanks,
Cristina Videira Lopes wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm glad this is getting a generally positive reaction. I believe in the
hypergrid, or something like it, strongly enough that I'm going to stick
around and do whatever necessary to see it, or something like it, go
into the box.
Obviously, I agree with everything said here about revising things
properly and making sure the edges aren't too rough. I will appreciate
one or more of your 'older' ones (he!) looking carefully into it.
Generally, the hypergrid code is cleanly separated from the core code,
but let me tell you what I see as the main ugliness of this contribution:
The hypergrid touches heavily on Communications and, lightly, on
Environment.Scenes. Communications isn't as well componentized as other
things are; for example, the IClientAPI is a wonderful piece of the
architecture! Unlike that, the construction code for Communications is
hard-coded in OpenSimBase. Because of that, I had to subclass OpenSim,
which is very ugly. If there's a way of making Communications a
component that can be specified in the config file, that would be great!
Not just for the hypergrid, but it would open the door for
experimentation with other alternative interoperability ideas.
For the extension on Environment.Scenes, again, the Scene-related
classes are being hard-coded in OpenSimBase. If there's a way of
spec-ing that outside, it would be great.
I know how to quick-fix both of these, but I think this probably needs a
solid fix from those of you who have been making the wonderful job of
componentizing opensim, rather than a quick fix from me.
Crista
Stefan Andersson wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As much as I share that sentiment, and despite not having looked at
the patch, it's usually a good idea to consider splitting large
patches up into more of babysteps - 'process' over 'product' so to speak.
Ie, is it possible for the hypergrid posse to work with core over time
to gradually change core into something suitable for them?
Most oftenly to let the code transform in steps leads to the code
itself 'accumulating wisdom' - which leads to greated flexibility and
encapsulation. (If it's done with proper love and care in each step) -
and also lets core + hypergrid communicate over small chunks of code,
instead of big whoppers. (Historically, big whoppers either rot or
create havoc, but undesired outcomes)
Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB
Join the 3d web revolution : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tribalnet.se/">http://tribalnet.se/</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 08:08:32 -0500
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sdague@gmail.com">sdague@gmail.com</a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Hypergrid patch
Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dahlia Trimble wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks, that one built properly against 7364, but 7376 (head at
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">the time
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I tried) complained about some missing references to LLSD. Seems
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">a patch
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">set of this size can go stale quite quickly so hopefully a few of
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">the
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">other core devs can chime in real soon and give it a nod... and
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">then we
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">can work together to commit it. :)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I think this situation was somewhat unusual with the libOMV update
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">- the names of fairly fundamental classes do not
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">change every day.
I think with a large patch the submitter has to accept a certain
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">amount of pain in resyncing it to the current trunk -
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">this in itself demonstrates how serious they (and we) are about
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">supporting it. There is a need, I feel, to consider
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">this carefully and not rush in to a decision. This patch requires
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">evaluation on both a raw technical and an
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">architectural level - an evaluation that I hope to start helping
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">with later on today.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm +1 for the idea, I'll defer to Justin's judgement on implementation
here because I won't have enough time to dig through this of late.
I definitely think getting hypergrid, or something like it, into core is
a good thing. Letting opensim grids interconnect out of the box is
something that has always been on our vision list.
-Sean
--
Sean Dague / Neas Bade
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sdague@gmail.com">sdague@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dague.net">http://dague.net</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<pre wrap="">
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<pre wrap=""><!---->
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