Diva,<br><br>Your offer is greatly appreciated. As I mentioned a while ago, we are just now merging the newest OpenSim code to us, which makes the patching process back to OpenSim easier. We will have first (still buggy) version of the merged code available 14th of April, next Monday at our sourceforge SVN. We will continue to add patches as they appear to OpenSim to keep codebases aligned and we continue to fix and test things so that they really work. Mikko will start some patching as soon as possible.<br>
If you want to help us, Mikko can add you to the sourceforge project.<br><br>Thank you!<br>Jani <br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">2008/4/11, Diva Canto <<a href="mailto:diva@metaverseink.com">diva@metaverseink.com</a>>:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
OK, understood.<br>
If the realXtend programmers-extraordinaires could find a way of using
a proxy, like 3di's load balancing (or even their proxy +- as is), I
think that would be a good thing.<br>
<br>
My main point is that having inter-grid TPs is a must for any
serious=scalable purposes of virtual worlds (that's what I see from
where I stand); you guys already have it, in some form, so there's no
point in me or others re-inventing the wheel; but it's taking quite a
while to integrate it with OpenSim -- there's been, what, 6 weeks,
which is an eternity for this particular high-speed project. I think
the reason why it's taking so long is a process mismatch: realXtend did
substantial changes not only to the code but also to the architecture
of OpenSim; OpenSim is all about a very rapid sequence of small
patches. So let's break what you did in smaller patches so that it
plays better with the OpenSim process. If you don't want to do that, I
can try to take a look at your code and see how it could be
chunckified/patchified/modularized more efficiently. I would *love* to
see what you did integrated with OpenSim asap.<div><span class="e" id="q_1193e33aa1abd972_1"><br>
<br>
Jani Pirkola wrote:
<blockquote cite="http://mid6c9557390804110232x233fc21bx598fe7e2f9a206fd@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">Hi,<br>
<br>
The LL viewer is supposed to login only once and stay connected to that
place for the whole session. If someone is willing to do "a voodoo
server side component" that can act as a proxy between the client and
different servers, then it might work. It just seems an awfully lot of
trouble to just be able to use current LL Viewer. <br>
<br>
Maybe OpenViewer guys could also be interested to support the avatar
architecture?<br>
<br>
Jani<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">2008/4/11, Cristina Videira Lopes <<a href="mailto:lopes@ics.uci.edu" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">lopes@ics.uci.edu</a>>:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Can't
wait to see that integrated with OpenSim!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I like
your viewer a lot, but do you think there is a way
of restructuring this so that it can be used with the regular LL
viewer? Why
does this need your viewer at all? Is it because the login process
requires
additional cooperation from the client? I mean, I understand that the
more fancy
avatar appearance that you have requires changes in the viewer, but I
don't
see why the inter-grid TPs require a different viewer. Isn't there a
way
of separating the inter-grid TPs from the avatar appearance? Could you
explain
that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Crista /
Diva</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jani Pirkola<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:29 PM
<div><span><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar</span></div>
</span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Hi,</p>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div>
<div>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">1)
Will VeriSign or Yahoo – or whomever – be able to set up these
kinds of account services?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
Yes that is right. </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">2)
Does it work more or less the way I described my usage scenario? That
is, will
I be able to go from OSGrid to the public IBM grid under <a href="mailto:crista@verisignvw.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">crista@verisignvw.com</a>,
assuming both grids accept verisignvw accounts?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
yes just like that. You get also possibility to change your account in
the
teleporting process in case you know that another grid is not accepting
your
example <a href="mailto:crista@verisignvw.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">crista@verisignvw.com</a>
account (actually this happens if you teleport to Second Life). </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">3)
Does this require the use of the realXtend viewer or can this be used
with the
standard LL viewer?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p>Currently only realXtend viewer can be used, but I wish that
in the future there will be more support for this architecture. We
maintain the
realXtend viewer so that it can be used to access also SL servers or
standard
OpenSim. The avatar appearance from avatar storage can only be seen by
others
on realXtend servers. The architecture needs support from both server
and
client. </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
Jani</p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Crista /
Diva</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jani Pirkola<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<span><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-dev] avatar system or similar</span></span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Hi,<br>
<br>
Some comments how realXend has implemented things:</p>
<div>
<p>2008/4/10, Michael Wright <<a href="mailto:michaelwri22@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">michaelwri22@yahoo.co.uk</a>>:</p>
<p>I haven't been able to find too much on how the RealXtend avatar
system is
really going to work. And while in some ways I think its a step in the
right
direction, it also seems to limit a lot of things. I'm not so sure you
should alway have the same avatar for everything. Or should completely
cut the
"region servers" out of the whole process. If I teleport to a region
that has a role playing game, maybe my avatar should automatically
change (at
least clothes, but maybe body as well) to fit into that game. So the
region has
to be able to have some say over the avatar. </p>
<div>
<p><br>
The current realXtend login process gives a control point for region
servers as
well. When a user logs in to a region, the viewer sends URL to user's
avatar
storage. The region then sends that URL t other viewers so that other
user's
can see each other's avatars. It is possible that in e.g. a strict role
playing
world, the region uses it's own avatar storage which stores a special
avatar
for just that user. Then the region server sends URL to that avatar
storage
instead of the one that viewer sent to the region. If we want to get
really
smart here, it would be also possible to combine something from the
user's
regular avatar to the role playing game avatar to achieve nice
results... e.g.
using face form from user's regular avatar but otherwise using region
specific
body and clothes. </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<p> </p>
<p>I have the same sort of thoughts about inventory. While it
should not be
centralised, the regions do need to be able to (with permission) do
certain
things, like maybe a region gives you a extra set of folders for use in
that
region, but they disappear when you leave it. I am also not sure there
should
be just one inventory set for each user. Why not a number of sub sets
that can
be combined etc. Maybe the region could restrict access to only a
certain set,
which might be a set that it provides, when in that region; no space
ships when
in that serious business region.. Inventory really needs to swap to a
more url
based system. </p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
We are just thinking how to build all this in realXtend. Currently we
have
thought that each user will have a region specific inventory and a
personal
inventory. The personal inventory is stored at avatar storage so it
will travel
with the avatar. </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<p>Also we need to remember not everything will be
interconnected. There will
be some applications (or possible grids) that want to be separate from
everything else. <br>
<br>
So I don't think we should be forcing any centralised system on people.
And yes
from what I've read, I actually think the realxtend avatar system
sounds too
centralised, but that could be because I don't know enough details of
what is
planned. I'm not saying its wrong, it just doesn't fit all possible
uses. So we
need things to at least be modular. </p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
Currently realXtend components have been designed so that there are no
centralized control points, it would be really a bad planning to build
such an
architecture on that kind of centralized assumptions. In realXtend
architecture, everyone can set up their own avatar storages and user
authentication services and decide to trust or not to other user's
authentication services. <br>
If a virtual world hosting company wants to make a completely walled
garden
solution with realXtend, that is also possible. They can set up their
own
avatar authentication and storage and trust no-one else's
authentication server
(there is a basic allow/deny setting for this). </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<p> </p>
<p>Having said all that, of course I think a lot of people and
applications
will want to have shared resources like these. Just we have to be
careful in
how they are implemented. And for opensim at least, that should be a
open
process/design that everyone can be part of. </p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
A team of people almost always reaches better solutions over
individual. All
the different use cases should be covered in a great care. I hope that
realXtend initiative with the distributed avatar architecture is being
refined
with the OpenSim community involvement. I am sure that there are still
many
things that need addressing. The realXtend code is available at <a href="http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/</a>
and as I mentioned in my earlier mail, we will have a new version,
which is
based on current OpenSim, soon available.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jani Pirkola<br>
realXtend program manager<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><b><i>Sean Dague <<a href="mailto:sean@dague.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sean@dague.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 3pt; margin-left: 3pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<p>On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 08:50:33AM -0700, Diva Canto wrote:<br>
> Hi,<br>
> <br>
> What happened to realXtend's "avatar system"? Is it being
integrated <br>
> with OpenSim?<br>
<br>
Short answers. I don't know, and no. The process for code coming into<br>
OpenSim is to put a patch in mantis. I haven't seen any proposed<br>
patches in this area in mantis.<br>
<br>
> From where I stand, that, or something like that, is a major <br>
> architectural requirement for virtual worlds to get serious.
Without the <br>
> ability for people to get an identity+inventory that they can port
<br>
> around through different organization's grids, this is not going
to be <br>
> that useful. I see a lot of interest from organizations to set up
their <br>
> own virtual worlds under their control (so, their own grid'ed
regions), <br>
> but if people have to get accounts with them to visit, this is
just not <br>
> going to work for serious usages - period.<br>
<br>
Hence you've created the paradox. :)<br>
<br>
* We want everything connected<br>
* We don't want to trust a single authoritative source for info<br>
(otherwise you'd be on Second Life)<br>
<br>
Honestly, this is a hard problem to solve, and one that seems a bit<br>
beyond the current scope. That being said, implementations and research<br>
in this area which work with OpenSim are always welcomed.<br>
<br>
> I understand there's a ton of stability work to be done, but this <br>
> particular architectural decision is really important, even <br>
> (especially?) at this early stage; we all trust stability will
happen <br>
> over time.<br>
> Is there anything that I can do to boost the efforts in that
direction, <br>
> besides sending this email?<br>
<br>
Sample peer based User services that allow cross talk would be useful.<br>
The moral equivalent of OpenID for virtual worlds (because you need more<br>
than just what openid provides).<br>
<br>
-Sean<br>
<br>
-- <br>
__________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
Sean Dague Mid-Hudson Valley<br>
sean at dague dot net Linux Users Group<br>
<a href="http://dague.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://dague.net</a>
<a href="http://mhvlug.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://mhvlug.org</a><br>
<br>
There is no silver bullet. Plus, werewolves make better neighbors<br>
than zombies, and they tend to keep the vampire population down.<br>
__________________________________________________________________</p>
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