PS. <br><br>I think most of us are kind of disregarding the current system/protocol as we know for most uses that its not really much use. But as you said it does have some uses, but if someone wanted to use such a system on their grid/game then it shouldn't take long at all to write a module that implements it. I think certainly within a few days a module could be wrote that handled most of the messages/transactions and kept track of users balance. Of course not everyone running a grid will be a programmer and every grid certainly shouldn't have to write their own version. But what I mean is that it should be very simple for someone to write a module and either submit it as a patch to the opensim project or to create their own project out of it. <br><br>So I don't think, this is really part of what most of us mean, when we talk/think about a currency/payment system.<br><br><b><i>Aldon Hynes <Aldon.Hynes@Orient-Lodge.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq"
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> /d<br><br>I hear what you're saying, but it still sounds an awful lot to me like your<br>saying that because we cannot force all servers to be trusted servers we<br>should not include in the design any feature that depends on trusted<br>servers. That does not sound like a wise decision to me.<br><br>That said, I recognize there are many issues to be addressed in moving<br>forward from release 0.40, many of which, some people may find much more<br>important or compelling. However, that doesn't mean we should design an<br>architecture that does not allow for the use of currency or discourage<br>people who are interested in that part of the project from working on it.<br><br>Nor does it suggest that we should attempt to be all things to all possible<br>users. Of course we can't implement something that will meet all possible<br>needs of all the possible users. However, to use that as an
excuse to not<br>seek an architecture that will meet the needs of many people seems<br>particularly short sighted in my mind. Yes, LL may be changing the way they<br>handle currency going forward. Perhaps we need to be involved in that<br>discussion instead of just throwing up our hands and walking away.<br><br>Aldon<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de<br>[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Dalien Talbot<br>Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 1:22 PM<br>To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment<br><br><br>Aldon,<br><br>Let me illustrate the core of the issue. You are logging in to your<br>bank. What happens, is that the access point where you are connected<br>currently, forces the decryption of the data, is able to see all the<br>contents cleartext, then reencrypts the data and sends it to the bank.<br>Same on the way back.<br><br>Assuming that the access point is something
set up by "someone on the<br>street" - what would be the maximum amount of money you would make the<br>transactions for, in this scheme ? (ow, nevermind, your banking<br>details are already known to the access point, so they'll take care of<br>the remaining funds :)<br><br>And we're not even at this stage with opensim. :)<br><br>/d<br><br>On Nov 14, 2007 6:47 PM, Aldon Hynes <Aldon.Hynes@orient-lodge.com> wrote:<br>><br>><br>> I think the concern that Michael brings up is a little bit of a red<br>herring.<br>> Let me explain why. To me, it sounds like he is saying that because some<br>> implementations of OpenSim grids would not be able to guarantee the<br>validity<br>> of the currency in their implementation, then we should not create<br>software<br>> that will make it possible in any implementation. That sounds like a<br>> mistake to me.<br>><br>> To me, the handling of ingrid currency is one of the more compelling<br>aspects<br>> of
the Second Life and related experience. It is worth noting that many<br>> MMORPGs have different ways of supporting currencies, and from an MMORPG<br>> perspective, it seems essential. Likewise, from a business perspective in<br>> seems essential. I could easily foresee myself running a very open grid<br>> where anyone could connect their regions and the currency in that grid<br>would<br>> be meaningless, while at the same time, running a much more tightly<br>> controlled grid where I could verify the region operators and feel<br>confident<br>> that the money in that grid has real meaning. It seems to me as if<br>currency<br>> should be grid dependent and not region dependent. My understand is that<br>> this is how the current SL viewers and SL servers behave, and my hope is<br>> that OpenSim will end up being essentially an alternative choice to the SL<br>> servers that behave essentially the same way and can interact with the<br>>
existing SL viewers without the need for special mods to the viewers.<br>><br>> So, I do hope that people rethink their view about currency and its role<br>in<br>> the OpenSim project. I believe that not addressing it and making it an<br>> important part of the project will make the project much less compelling.<br>><br>> Aldon<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de<br>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Michael Wright<br>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11:59 AM<br>> To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment<br>><br>> One of the main problems with money in opensim, is the whole thing of<br>having<br>> the Region servers involved, in any way, in transactions. Which is how the<br>> current system is set up.<br>><br>> That is okay, if you always know that you can trust a region server;
ie<br>you<br>> have a closed grid where every region server on that grid is trusted. This<br>> is how LL can use the current system. As they control the servers, they<br>> "know" how each region server will behave. But with a open grid where<br>other<br>> people can connect their region servers, then we can no longer trust a<br>> region, like the current system expects. Anyone, could have changed some<br>> code on their server to do fake transactions or various other things.<br>><br>> So the general opinion is that money should be something like a direct<br>> client to transaction server approach, with messages saying the<br>transaction<br>> has been completed sent to the region server if required. And that will<br>need<br>> changes to the client.<br>><br>> So at least at this point, currency is not part of the opensim project. I<br>> generally, don't think it will ever really be part of the core, as<br>different<br>> uses
could have their own requirements. And some uses, just won't require<br>> any in-world currency. So its likely that such systems will be<br>> add-ons/modules. But even for those its really to early.<br>><br>> Aldon Hynes <Aldon.Hynes@Orient-Lodge.com> wrote:<br>><br>> Ezekiel, Sean,<br>><br>> I do hope I'm not being dismissed as a 'marketing guy'. I've been<br>trying<br>> to keep the discussion of how finances are handled in OpenSim on a<br>technical<br>> level. I initially brought it up in terms of how we handle authentication<br>> as a response to a suggestion of dealing with anonymous users. As we<br>looked<br>> more closely at it, I tried to focus particularly on how money is handle<br>in<br>> scripts since that seems to be the real key do commerce in Second Life and<br>> hence is likely to be key in OpenSim as well.<br>><br>> When I connect to my OpenSim grid, I see that I have 1000 dollars.<br>I've<br>>
looked at the database schema, and I don't see where that is stored. It<br>> would seem as if it ought to be in the users table. However, I don't know<br>> enough about the entity relationships to know if it would be better off in<br>> one of the other folders. In addition, I'm not well enough acquainted<br>with<br>> the code, or the data abstraction layer at this point, to have a good view<br>> of how to approach modifying the schema.<br>><br>> I also scanned through the code, but I couldn't find the section of<br>code<br>> where the number of dollars that a user has is communicated back and forth<br>> between the server to the client.<br>><br>> All of that said, I think Ezekiel is right. I've worked on too many<br>> projects in the past were an important part of functionality is not<br>> considered early on and it becomes a mess trying to shoehorn that<br>> functionality in later. In my mind, the currency component is
one of<br>those<br>> pieces of functionality I would hate to see shoehorned in at the last<br>> minute.<br>><br>> So, I do hope that we maintain a good threat about the currency and not<br>> simply dismiss it because of potential non-technical issues.<br>><br>> Aldon<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de<br>> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces@lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of<br>> ezekiel@daelindor.com<br>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:03 AM<br>> To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment<br>><br>><br>> Sean,<br>><br>> you are absolutely right. The technical discussion should not be drowned<br>by<br>> enhancement requests from the 'marketing guys'.<br>><br>> However, while you dev guys are working hard to get the core up to speed,<br>> someone must plan ahead to add the features that make this whole venture a<br>>
success.<br>><br>> If we discuss the money and usability stuff in a separate thread, how do<br>we<br>> make sure that we get heard and you don't end up with an excellent<br>> implementation of an SL clone - minus the hipe ?<br>><br>> Ezekiel<br>><br>><br>> >I think that in world Money is one of those places where the OpenSim<br>> >grid runners are going to need to provide code appropriate to their<br>> >situation. Running a sim with no money is easy. Money opens up all<br>> >sorts of other non technical issues: privacy laws, taxes, refunds, etc.<br>><br>> >It would be nice to avoid drowning out the technical conversation on<br>> >list with lots of money pontificating.<br>><br>> >That being said, patches are always welcomed. :)<br>><br>> >Sean Dague_______________________________________________<br>> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>>
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev<br>><br>><br>><br>> ________________________________<br>> For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this<br>> month.<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Opensim-dev mailing list<br>> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev<br>><br>><br>_______________________________________________<br>Opensim-dev mailing list<br>Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Opensim-dev mailing list<br>Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de<br>https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev<br></Aldon.Hynes@Orient-Lodge.com></Aldon.Hynes@orient-lodge.com></blockquote><br><p>
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