[Opensim-dev] Region Crossing State

Mon Jun 16 16:45:35 UTC 2014

Thank you - the comments are very interesting and while I was aware of the
security concerns, I didn't realise that was a big part of the hold up. I
assumed security issues would be the equivalent of walking across a border.

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Diva Canto <diva at metaverseink.com> wrote:

>  I'm sure vehicle border crossings are important for some situations.
>
> For me, they got a lot less important now that OpenSim supports
> variable-sized regions. There are also alternatives (co-simulation) to
> moving vehicles along very large areas that are able to avoid crossing
> borders altogether, therefore avoiding the "bumps" on borders and the extra
> load that moving vehicles and crossing borders entail. These 2 things
> (varregions and co-simulation) don't exist in SL, but they're superior in
> some respects, because they avoid crossing borders altogether; it's much
> smoother, keeps the load down, and avoids running into security issues.
>
> Here's a video showing a large-scale traffic co-simulation:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=291yE_9eefU#t=4m02s
> Co-simulation means that one simulator has part of the objects, in this
> case the vehicles, and the other simulators have the rest of the scene
> objects. The vehicles never cross borders, even though they move along very
> large distances (in this case, 3km x 1.5km).
> I talked about how to do this at OSCC'13.
>
> This is not to say that I don't support adding proper vehicle border
> crossing support to OpenSim, if someone cares to do it. +1!
> But I would never trade the borderless way of moving vehicles for the SL's
> way of moving vehicles, so vehicle border crossings has been very low
> priority for me, personally. One of the perks of reimplementing the
> server-side is that we can do things that can't be done in SL!
>
>
>
> On 6/16/2014 7:10 AM, Frank Nichols wrote:
>
> I guess no one cares about region border crossings ...
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe someone can answer this - I am aware of NPVs but have never used
>> them. I am pretty sure than as of a year ago you could not be seated and do
>> a region border crossing, however a lot of work has gone into OS in that
>> area in the past 6 months and it may be possible now.
>>
>>  Frank
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:22 AM, Mike Higgins <mike at kayaker.net> wrote:
>>
>>> All very good questions, but there is a fundamental assumption that all
>>> vehicles are physical.
>>> 1. Can non-physical vehicles (NPVs) cross sim borders?
>>>     An NPV is a non physical object that uses llSetPos, llSetPrimParams,
>>> llSetLinkPrimParamsFast(LINK_THIS,[PRIM_POSITION....]) or
>>> llSetKeyframedMotion to move across a SIM boundary.
>>>     On some grids, NPVs cross SIM borders just like physical vehicles.
>>> 2. Can NPVs cross SIM borders with an avatar sitting on them?
>>> 3. Can NPVs cross SIM borders WITHOUT an avatar sitting on them? (for
>>> example a ferryboat that makes regular runs from one SIM to another, and
>>> keeps making the rounds even when empty).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/13/14 10:58 PM, Frank Nichols wrote:
>>>
>>>>  OS is now 7 years old and the fundamental feature of crossing from
>>>> one region to another while riding on or in a physical vehicle is not
>>>> working. I, and most of the community, are aware that there are partial
>>>> implementations being worked on, and at least one grid has an
>>>> implementation similar in functionality to SL - but that implementation is
>>>> not yet available to the OpenSim community in general.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, if it were easy to implement it would be done - it may well
>>>> be impossible to implement...
>>>>
>>>> PVC below stands for physical vehicle crossings between regions with
>>>> avatar(s) riding the vehicle(s).
>>>>
>>>> 1. Is PVC a desirable feature - does the OpenSim community want to be
>>>> able to ride physical vehicles while crossing region borders? With the
>>>> implementation of var-regions, crossings are less of a necessary feature -
>>>> however, a smooth or bump-less crossing combined with variable sized
>>>> regions would give grid designers a lot of flexibility.
>>>>
>>>> 2. What features would be expected of a solution?
>>>>
>>>> a. Bump-less region crossings - ie. unlike SL or other implementations,
>>>> bump-less region crossings would be a desirable feature. I would prefer
>>>> that region crossings be bump-less - this means to me that there is no
>>>> movement shuddering visible while crossing, all scripts transfer their
>>>> running state smoothly, and sounds would continue to play smoothly. A
>>>> person observing their avatar cross from one region to another would not be
>>>> able to see/detect any sign that a crossing has just taken place except a
>>>> script reporting which region it is running in would suddenly begin
>>>> reporting that it is in the destination region.
>>>>
>>>> b. Should PVC be required to work on all physics engines mainly ODE and
>>>> BulletSim at this time. My feeling is that I would be happy if PVC only
>>>> worked on BulletSim. I understand that many people still use/prefer ODE -
>>>> but if PVC only worked on BulletSim (initially) I would feel that would be
>>>> a good step, and then if there is a demand from the community and someone
>>>> available to do the work, it could possibly be ported to ODE.
>>>>
>>>> c. Would it be necessary to be able to cross between regions running
>>>> different physics engines? In other words, would the community expect a
>>>> physical vehicle to be able to cross from a region running ODE into a
>>>> region running BulletSim?
>>>>
>>>> d. Would a “bumpy” crossing between regions running different physics
>>>> engines be acceptable with a smooth crossing only being available if both
>>>> the starting and destination regions were running BulletSim.
>>>>
>>>> e. Would Scripts need to cross smoothly between starting and ending
>>>> regions - or would a script restart/recompile be acceptable? What would be
>>>> acceptable behavior if the configuration of the destination region is
>>>> different than the starting region concerning scripts. I expect the scripts
>>>> to stop running and report an error?
>>>>
>>>> f. Would a physical vehicle size restriction for PVC be acceptable?
>>>> What would be the expected result of a “train” (linked set of “train cars”
>>>> populated with avatars) crossing? Again, I think this should be smooth and
>>>> bump-less assuming the starting region and destination region meet some
>>>> criteria.
>>>>
>>>> g. What would be acceptable behavior if a PVC is attempted between
>>>> regions with differing physical link set limitations - such as number of
>>>> prims, size of physical prims, etc. Would the vehicle be denied access to
>>>> the destination region if it’s construction exceeded destination region
>>>> limits?
>>>>
>>>> g. What is the expected behavior for PVCs concerning permissions of the
>>>> vehicle entering and/or leaving regions.For example, would the vehicle
>>>> flying over a region have the same expectations for access permissions that
>>>> a avatar flying over a restricted parcel would have?
>>>>
>>>> h. What would be the expectations around PVCs and HyperGrid? Would the
>>>> community want/expect a physical vehicle to be able to be ridden to a
>>>> different grid via hyper grid technology. If so, would it be required to
>>>> work in any combinations of hosting hardware (linux, windows, osx, etc)?
>>>>
>>>> i. Should vehicles be able to be ridden while teleporting? Should such
>>>> teleports be able to teleport within a region as well as between two
>>>> regions on the same or different grids?
>>>>
>>>> j. Are there expectations concerning the altitude a PVC can take place?
>>>> Submarines? Aircraft? Sub-terrain Tunnels?
>>>>
>>>> k. Obviously we would all like our favorite client to support the PVC,
>>>> but would humpless HG enabled PVC be acceptable if was initially supported
>>>> by a single popular client? Obviously the implementation would have to be
>>>> OpenSource and licensed according to OS requirements, so other
>>>> clients/viewers would be able to add support at their desecration.
>>>>
>>>> What other features or capabilities would you like to see? Personally,
>>>> I would like to see capabilities beyond what SL supports - what about you?
>>>> Is Sl compatibility a requirement for PVC? OS is 7 years old, I believe it
>>>> is time to look forward to what the community wants, and not continue to
>>>> just “keep up with SL”. Hyper-grid is an excellent example of OS taking the
>>>> lead - maybe it is time for PVC to take the lead also.
>>>>
>>>> Let me be clear I have nothing but admiration for the OS developers. I
>>>> am not complaining about that they have done. I am amazed at the
>>>> outstanding work they have done and the feature set they have provided to
>>>> us. My discussion here, is an attempt to determine if there is a desire for
>>>> PVC, or if the OS community finds the current state of region crossings to
>>>> be acceptable.
>>>>
>>>> Let me also be clear also that I understand the features mentioned
>>>> above may not even be possible - that is not what I am interested in, I
>>>> want to know what would the community want a PVC implementation to look
>>>> like if their dreams could come true.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Frank Nichols
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing listOpensim-dev at opensimulator.orghttp://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://opensimulator.org/pipermail/opensim-dev/attachments/20140616/084bd630/attachment-0001.html>