[Opensim-dev] Region Crossing State

Mon Jun 16 15:39:50 UTC 2014

It's hard to say how many do care; it used to be quite a contentious issue.
With the advent of mega regions, if the issue wasn't directly addressed, it
was at least set aside for many interested users. Varregions work even
better for large vehicle spaces, but that still doesn't address the issue
of grid and (potentially hyper grid) travel on vehicles of any sort.

If you will recall in the discussions that took place on the topic in times
past, there are very real concerns involving the security abuse potential
of having running scripts enter one's regions from unknown origins; however
(it would at least seem) that these concerns were set aside as concern
attachments; one would hope for a set of effective configuration options to
limit or eliminate entirely the risk associated with permitting running
scripts to enter freely into one's region, whether vehicle or attachment.

Sure we'd all love to be able to travel as your questions (not to mention
our previous experiences in other virtual world implementations) would
imply; but you must realize that it isn't the features and functionality
that are difficult to deliver; it is the security issues that surround that
feature set that provide significant obstacles to delivery.

Additionally, there are matters of motivation and available skill sets in
the dev team; most opensim devs are not physics simulation people by area
of interest, and many are not invested in these features. Until we have a
dev around who is genuinely interested and knowledgeable, with the time and
motivation, we can't expect much development in this part of the platform.
BTW, it deserves mention that Robert Adams is such a fellow, and has made
great strides with implementing vehicles generally in opensim using bullet
physics, and continues to do so; he's just one guy though, and its perhaps
at best impolite to suggest he isn't working hard enough to get these
things done.

It just isn't worth a lot of drama; it'll happen when it happens because
someone who is able makes it happen. When it does, we'll all be glad :)

Cheers

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I guess no one cares about region border crossings ...
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Frank Nichols <j.frank.nichols at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe someone can answer this - I am aware of NPVs but have never used
>> them. I am pretty sure than as of a year ago you could not be seated and do
>> a region border crossing, however a lot of work has gone into OS in that
>> area in the past 6 months and it may be possible now.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:22 AM, Mike Higgins <mike at kayaker.net> wrote:
>>
>>> All very good questions, but there is a fundamental assumption that all
>>> vehicles are physical.
>>> 1. Can non-physical vehicles (NPVs) cross sim borders?
>>>     An NPV is a non physical object that uses llSetPos, llSetPrimParams,
>>> llSetLinkPrimParamsFast(LINK_THIS,[PRIM_POSITION....]) or
>>> llSetKeyframedMotion to move across a SIM boundary.
>>>     On some grids, NPVs cross SIM borders just like physical vehicles.
>>> 2. Can NPVs cross SIM borders with an avatar sitting on them?
>>> 3. Can NPVs cross SIM borders WITHOUT an avatar sitting on them? (for
>>> example a ferryboat that makes regular runs from one SIM to another, and
>>> keeps making the rounds even when empty).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/13/14 10:58 PM, Frank Nichols wrote:
>>>
>>>> OS is now 7 years old and the fundamental feature of crossing from one
>>>> region to another while riding on or in a physical vehicle is not working.
>>>> I, and most of the community, are aware that there are partial
>>>> implementations being worked on, and at least one grid has an
>>>> implementation similar in functionality to SL - but that implementation is
>>>> not yet available to the OpenSim community in general.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, if it were easy to implement it would be done - it may well
>>>> be impossible to implement...
>>>>
>>>> PVC below stands for physical vehicle crossings between regions with
>>>> avatar(s) riding the vehicle(s).
>>>>
>>>> 1. Is PVC a desirable feature - does the OpenSim community want to be
>>>> able to ride physical vehicles while crossing region borders? With the
>>>> implementation of var-regions, crossings are less of a necessary feature -
>>>> however, a smooth or bump-less crossing combined with variable sized
>>>> regions would give grid designers a lot of flexibility.
>>>>
>>>> 2. What features would be expected of a solution?
>>>>
>>>> a. Bump-less region crossings - ie. unlike SL or other implementations,
>>>> bump-less region crossings would be a desirable feature. I would prefer
>>>> that region crossings be bump-less - this means to me that there is no
>>>> movement shuddering visible while crossing, all scripts transfer their
>>>> running state smoothly, and sounds would continue to play smoothly. A
>>>> person observing their avatar cross from one region to another would not be
>>>> able to see/detect any sign that a crossing has just taken place except a
>>>> script reporting which region it is running in would suddenly begin
>>>> reporting that it is in the destination region.
>>>>
>>>> b. Should PVC be required to work on all physics engines mainly ODE and
>>>> BulletSim at this time. My feeling is that I would be happy if PVC only
>>>> worked on BulletSim. I understand that many people still use/prefer ODE -
>>>> but if PVC only worked on BulletSim (initially) I would feel that would be
>>>> a good step, and then if there is a demand from the community and someone
>>>> available to do the work, it could possibly be ported to ODE.
>>>>
>>>> c. Would it be necessary to be able to cross between regions running
>>>> different physics engines? In other words, would the community expect a
>>>> physical vehicle to be able to cross from a region running ODE into a
>>>> region running BulletSim?
>>>>
>>>> d. Would a "bumpy" crossing between regions running different physics
>>>> engines be acceptable with a smooth crossing only being available if both
>>>> the starting and destination regions were running BulletSim.
>>>>
>>>> e. Would Scripts need to cross smoothly between starting and ending
>>>> regions - or would a script restart/recompile be acceptable? What would be
>>>> acceptable behavior if the configuration of the destination region is
>>>> different than the starting region concerning scripts. I expect the scripts
>>>> to stop running and report an error?
>>>>
>>>> f. Would a physical vehicle size restriction for PVC be acceptable?
>>>> What would be the expected result of a "train" (linked set of "train cars"
>>>> populated with avatars) crossing? Again, I think this should be smooth and
>>>> bump-less assuming the starting region and destination region meet some
>>>> criteria.
>>>>
>>>> g. What would be acceptable behavior if a PVC is attempted between
>>>> regions with differing physical link set limitations - such as number of
>>>> prims, size of physical prims, etc. Would the vehicle be denied access to
>>>> the destination region if it's construction exceeded destination region
>>>> limits?
>>>>
>>>> g. What is the expected behavior for PVCs concerning permissions of the
>>>> vehicle entering and/or leaving regions.For example, would the vehicle
>>>> flying over a region have the same expectations for access permissions that
>>>> a avatar flying over a restricted parcel would have?
>>>>
>>>> h. What would be the expectations around PVCs and HyperGrid? Would the
>>>> community want/expect a physical vehicle to be able to be ridden to a
>>>> different grid via hyper grid technology. If so, would it be required to
>>>> work in any combinations of hosting hardware (linux, windows, osx, etc)?
>>>>
>>>> i. Should vehicles be able to be ridden while teleporting? Should such
>>>> teleports be able to teleport within a region as well as between two
>>>> regions on the same or different grids?
>>>>
>>>> j. Are there expectations concerning the altitude a PVC can take place?
>>>> Submarines? Aircraft? Sub-terrain Tunnels?
>>>>
>>>> k. Obviously we would all like our favorite client to support the PVC,
>>>> but would humpless HG enabled PVC be acceptable if was initially supported
>>>> by a single popular client? Obviously the implementation would have to be
>>>> OpenSource and licensed according to OS requirements, so other
>>>> clients/viewers would be able to add support at their desecration.
>>>>
>>>> What other features or capabilities would you like to see? Personally,
>>>> I would like to see capabilities beyond what SL supports - what about you?
>>>> Is Sl compatibility a requirement for PVC? OS is 7 years old, I believe it
>>>> is time to look forward to what the community wants, and not continue to
>>>> just "keep up with SL". Hyper-grid is an excellent example of OS taking the
>>>> lead - maybe it is time for PVC to take the lead also.
>>>>
>>>> Let me be clear I have nothing but admiration for the OS developers. I
>>>> am not complaining about that they have done. I am amazed at the
>>>> outstanding work they have done and the feature set they have provided to
>>>> us. My discussion here, is an attempt to determine if there is a desire for
>>>> PVC, or if the OS community finds the current state of region crossings to
>>>> be acceptable.
>>>>
>>>> Let me also be clear also that I understand the features mentioned
>>>> above may not even be possible - that is not what I am interested in, I
>>>> want to know what would the community want a PVC implementation to look
>>>> like if their dreams could come true.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Frank Nichols
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Opensim-dev at opensimulator.org
>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
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