No subject


Sat Apr 19 01:31:08 UTC 2014 

evolution of virtual worlds.  It is no surprise that most Opensim developers
wish to go beyond that first step, learning from past mistakes and finding
better models for the future.

I mentioned earlier our work at the IETF on new VW protocols, in which LL
are a leading party --- see  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogpx ,
the mailing list of the VWRAP working group.  What may surprise you is that
even Lindens know that the current SL is not a good model for the future,
which is why the protocols being discussed go far beyond their legacy ones.
Indeed, Lindens will be facing a huge rewrite if this work bears fruit.
When even Lindens don't wish their future to be constrained by the current
SL design because they know its many problems, this really highlights how
bad it would be for the Opensim team to do so. :-)

I hope that one or more of these issues resonates with you, and makes it a
bit clearer why Opensim really cannot afford to align itself with SL.  There
is no future in looking backwards.


Morgaine.






=======================================

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Len Brown <lenwbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rock,
>
>      I sympathize with you on many levels.  I've also had my doubts
> regarding the future of OpenSim, but I have also maintained some degree of
> faith that things will pull through in the end.
>
>      For me the shock came when I was abruptly informed that "OpenSim is
> not Second Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor ever will."  I
> still haven't the foggiest idea what this developer had smoked for them to
> so strongly assert that incredibly false statement.
>
>      For me, the enjoyment of OpenSim has come from my intense devotion to
> building and skinning.  In fact, for the last few months I've been working
> on a full region that has many hundreds of skins, clothes, hair, furniture,
> etc, etc, that I'd like to package up as an OAR and give out freely, since
> repeatedly I've been told that instead of giving money to help further
> OpenSim I'd do more proactively by giving content.  So I plan to do just
> that and give my money to other open source initiatives that matter to me.
>
>      I have a passion for writing, and have thought many times that one of
> the greatest powers OpenSim would gain is having simple, straightforward,
> step-by-step instructions on how to download, compile, install, administer
> and overall just plain operate the core applications.  What kills me is that
> everyone who does a search for OpenSim inevitably hits the
> opensimulator.org site and that is where the massive roadblock presents
> itself.  It's useless for most and irrelevant to the few who consider
> themselves OpenSim experts.
>
>      Heck, even now on the configuration page it still displays info for
> 0.6.6 including (months old) known bugs in setting up region xml files.  If
> there was appointed a volunteer whose sole job was to keep information on
> opensimulator.org relevant that one task would resolve a mountain of
> negativity right there.  I sit here in front of my computers a good 10 to 12
> hours a day.
>
>      I would sincerely love to contribute to the OpenSim project,
> especially in documentation support.  But the thing holding me back is
> communication.  If I cannot get a straight answer on who to GIVE money to in
> order to help, then I stand little chance of getting clear, straight answers
> from developers when asking about issues I need to consider and incorporate
> in documentation.
>
>      If communication is a hurdle we can all overcome, with a genuine and
> heart-felt effort to relay information, motives, and plans with one another,
> then I'd sincerely appreciate having the opportunity to personally
> contribute.  I'm not a programmer today, but have a degree in programming
> fro the 90's (so much has changed my degree is practically useless in that
> regard).  But I do know how to explain things and relay information in
> simple terms.  But only if my own questions will be answered with more than
> "look it up or figure it out yourself" as my answer.
>
>      If any of you would appreciate my help, feel free to let me know at
> any time and I'll do what I can.
>
> - Len W. Brown
>      lenwbrown at gmail.com
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Colin B. Withers <
> Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I have decided to leave the Opensim project. You will probably not even
>> notice if I leave, as not being a programmer my only inputs were the writing
>> of the step-by-step tutorials (
>> http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/ ), the drafts of the OpenSim
>> User Manual on the Forge, and helping out in the IRC channels, for
>> newcomers.
>>
>> You may find my reasons for leaving Opensim interesting though (and please
>> do not construe any of my reasons as an attack on anyone).
>>
>> 1. The Platform
>> I raised this several times in the past in IRC, and made posts on my blog
>> about the product lifecycle of the platform (
>> http://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html). I believe that the platforms underpinning both Second Life and Opensim
>> are quite long in the tooth now, and I questioned how much product lifecycle
>> there was left, particularly given that Opensim is now nearing 3 years of
>> development, is still in Alpha, and if the current release of 0.6.7 is any
>> indicator, then still only around two thirds into the development cycle.
>> With the (inevitable) coming of much superior platforms, such as Blue Mars
>> and (as a virtual world); Unity, for browser-based Virtual Wolrds; and now
>> UDK (for creating sandboxes, standalones, and open grids), then I fear that
>> Opensim has missed the boat as far as the remaining lifecycle of the
>> platform is concerned. When you show people what is possible with these
>> engines (for example this avatar editor for the forthcom
>>  ing APB (using the Unreal Engine):
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icR3LtEMvZI or this city:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLzNbPXMDg (using the CryEngine), then
>> neither SL not Opensim stands comparison.
>>
>> 2. Lack of Support for Currency in Opensim
>> I felt the impact of this when I first made the switch from SL to Opensim.
>> I had a thriving RP sim in SL (over 50 people, mainly female) and they all
>> agreed to follow me over to my Opensim and the OSGrid. However, within a
>> month they had all left, citing the same reason, the lack of places to shop,
>> to buy the quality stuff they wanted (skins, hair, clothes etc), as a
>> quality appearance, and the fun of shopping is what all the females placed
>> high on their requirements from a Virtual World. They drifted back to Second
>> Life, and the guys followed them. I have always believed that the lack of
>> support for currency in the core was a mistake, but that is just my opinion.
>>
>> 3. Marketing
>> I have also raised this issue several times, and blogged about it. It is
>> far from clear just who an eventually released Opensim is actually aimed at.
>> I think that any company that is interested in a firewalled corporate
>> solution to collaboration and prototyping will already be looking at the
>> Enterprise solution that is currently available from Second Life; that any
>> indie group that is thinking of running a themed grid will need an economy
>> to stay viable; and any individual who is looking for a private sandbox
>> solution for their SL work will need full compatibility (which is not the
>> case with the OS version of LSL diverging from the SL LSL). So, just who is
>> the platform aimed at? I was also very disappointed in the view of one of
>> the core devs who said that 'marketing is a null concept for us'.
>>
>> I am currently designing and creating cities for Blue Mars, and involved
>> in a team for proving the UDK as a platform for the design and creation of
>> Virtual Worlds (as opposed to purely games), and with so much documentation
>> available for these mature engines (particularly for the UDK, Blue Mars lags
>> behind somewhat in that department, but have hired extra staff to put that
>> right), I am achieving the productivity I want, building the worlds that I
>> want, with stable crash-free platforms.
>>
>> However, I do wish the Opensim team the very best in their endeavours, and
>> I sincerely hope their goals are eventually achieved.
>>
>> If anyone would like to take over the Opensim Tutorials pages at
>> http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/ and
>> http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspot.com/ (they will need some updating
>> following several changes) then I am more than willing to pass the posts
>> over, and of course the Opensim User Manual is there in the Forge for anyone
>> to develop further.
>>
>> Best Regards and Good Luck
>>
>> Rock
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>

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On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Len Brown <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D=
"mailto:lenwbrown at gmail.com">lenwbrown at gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2=
04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;">For me
the shock came when I was abruptly informed that <b>"OpenSim is not Se=
cond
Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor ever will."</b>=A0 I=
 still
haven't the foggiest idea what this developer had smoked for them to so
strongly assert that incredibly false statement.</div></blockquote><br><br>=
Len, let me give you an alternative perspective on that quote to help you s=
ee the reasons for it.=A0 I'm not on the Opensim team, but after five y=
ears in SL, two years in AWG, and a year of working on future VW protocols =
in our IETF group, I have some background to know why Opensim needs to dist=
ance itself from SL:<br>
<br><ul><li>SL's statically tiled resource architecture is badly <b>non=
-scalable</b>, because most resource usage in VWs cannot be statically mapp=
ed (demand moves around).=A0 The inability to assign resources dynamically =
in SL results in huge overload in busy places and gross wastage in idle are=
as.=A0 It also limits the number of participants in events and the bandwidt=
h of their interaction, as well as the size and complexity of everything in=
 a region.=A0 This architecture is fundamental to SL, yet it is a recipe fo=
r failure.=A0 As long as Opensim adheres to the SL model, Opensim will be s=
imilarly non-scalable.</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>The LSL scripting language is linguistically weak, semanti=
cally obscure, and lacking in the glue that could allow components to coope=
rate effectively.=A0 As a result, individual scripts are quite underpowered=
 and inefficient, and multi-script constructions do not scale well in compl=
exity because the overheads of cooperation are so large.=A0 That's a ba=
d restriction on progress which Opensim needs to leave behind.</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>LSL scripts are not scalable in power or size, and this wi=
ll continue to be true even after SL allows C# and other CLR languages to b=
e used.=A0 There is no possibility of using more CPU power for scripting th=
an is available in one single simulator in SL.=A0 That is not a good founda=
tion upon which to build an ambitious future of clever components.</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>SL's simulation environment is non-portable, having ev=
olved over time into a plethora of special cases that will not be accuratel=
y replicable anywhere else.=A0 In effect this means that there will never b=
e effective interop with SL's scripted objects.=A0 It would not be a us=
eful goal to seek compatibility with what could realistically be described =
as an "ill-defined mess".</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>SL's object and type systems are <b>non-extensible</b>=
, so compatibility with SL means living in the past, and worse, living in a=
 past defined entirely by one slow-moving company.=A0 Tying the capabilitie=
s of Opensim to that millstone would be a disaster --- it would ensure the =
death of Opensim versus any extensible alternative that may appear.=A0 Deve=
loping new extensible forms of world data beyond SL's original set is a=
 must for Opensim's survival as a modern VW platform.<br>
</li></ul><br><ul><li>SL's viewer has deep knowledge of SL semantics be=
cause the client and server were designed for each other rather than design=
ed as endpoints of a standard protocol.=A0 This has the very bad consequenc=
e that future VW viewers would need to know about SL specifics in order to =
interoperate with SL, which is a poor approach that doesn't scale to me=
taverse-wide diversity.=A0 Opensim needs to leave world-specific kludges be=
hind if it has ambitions to underpin a highly diverse metaverse of worlds, =
and this means leaving the SL viewer behind.</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>SL's constructed objects are <b>non-hierarchical</b>, =
which means that creators cannot use objects created by others as subcompon=
ents.=A0 This restriction completely blocks the hierarchical engineering pr=
ocess that is the basis of progress in RL.=A0 In SL you always have to buil=
d from "raw materials", so it is not possible to ride on the shou=
lders of giants, nor harness a huge pyramid of people skills.=A0 Even Phili=
p and Cory Linden admitted that this was a mistake -- see=A0 <a href=3D"htt=
ps://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Prim_and_Object_Hierarchy">https://wiki.secon=
dlife.com/wiki/Prim_and_Object_Hierarchy</a> .=A0 We don't want to live=
 with their mistake.</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>SL is based on highly <b>centralized</b> concepts of <i>id=
entity, storage and control</i>, which come together to create either a wal=
led garden or a prison planet, depending on one's perspective.=A0 Whate=
ver one's worldview, the end result is badly non-scalable in those thre=
e areas.=A0 SL suffers hugely from that non-scalability despite the relativ=
ely small size of the service at this early stage.=A0 Opensim needs decentr=
alized / distributed mechanisms for <i>identity, storage and control</i> if=
 it is to scale for Internet-wide adoption.</li>
</ul><br><ul><li>From a futurist angle, Second Life has very narrow horizon=
s and barely pays lip service to the <b><i>virtual</i></b> aspect of "=
virtual worlds".=A0 Nobody could claim that a Flatland of square land =
tiles all featuring the same Earth-like look and physics pushes the envelop=
e of the imagination.=A0 To boldly go where Lindens did not go before (topo=
logically and geographically or spatially) will be one of the most apprecia=
ted developments in Opensim.=A0 SL's obsession with RL is an unwanted c=
onstraint in VWs, and we need to go beyond it.<br>
</li></ul><br><br>That is not the full list of problems with SL, but hopefu=
lly it serves to illustrate some of the concerns that VW developers have to=
 consider in the light of the SL legacy.=A0 While Linden Lab deserves much =
applause for their vision and for their work in creating Second Life, many =
years have now passed, and lessons have been learned.=A0 Compatibility with=
 SL must not be the end goal of Opensim because of issues like those highli=
ghted above.<br>
<br>From a longer perspective, SL represents only the first step in the evo=
lution of virtual worlds.=A0 It is no surprise that most Opensim developers=
 wish to go beyond that first step, learning from past mistakes and finding=
 better models for the future.<br>
<br>I mentioned earlier our work at the IETF on new VW protocols, in which =
LL are a leading party --- see=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/ogpx">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogpx</a> , the mailing =
list of the VWRAP working group.=A0 What may surprise you is that even Lind=
ens know that the current SL is not a good model for the future, which is w=
hy the protocols being discussed go far beyond their legacy ones.=A0 Indeed=
, Lindens will be facing a huge rewrite if this work bears fruit.=A0 When e=
ven Lindens don't wish their future to be constrained by the current SL=
 design because they know its many problems, this really highlights how bad=
 it would be for the Opensim team to do so. :-)<br>
<br>I hope that one or more of these issues resonates with you, and makes i=
t a bit clearer why Opensim really cannot afford to align itself with SL.=
=A0 There is no future in looking backwards.<br><br><br>Morgaine.<br><br><b=
r>
<br><br><br><br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Len Brown <span dir=3D=
"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lenwbrown at gmail.com">lenwbrown at gmail.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Rock,<br><br>=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 I sympathize with you on many levels.=A0 I've also had my dou=
bts regarding the future of OpenSim, but I have also maintained some degree=
 of faith that things will pull through in the end.<br>
<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 For me the shock came when I was abruptly informed that &q=
uot;OpenSim is not Second Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor=
 ever will."=A0 I still haven't the foggiest idea what this develo=
per had smoked for them to so strongly assert that incredibly false stateme=
nt.<br>

<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 For me, the enjoyment of OpenSim has come from my intense =
devotion to building and skinning.=A0 In fact, for the last few months I&#3=
9;ve been working on a full region that has many hundreds of skins, clothes=
, hair, furniture, etc, etc, that I'd like to package up as an OAR and =
give out freely, since repeatedly I've been told that instead of giving=
 money to help further OpenSim I'd do more proactively by giving conten=
t.=A0 So I plan to do just that and give my money to other open source init=
iatives that matter to me.<br>

<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have a passion for writing, and have thought many times =
that one of the greatest powers OpenSim would gain is having simple, straig=
htforward, step-by-step instructions on how to download, compile, install, =
administer and overall just plain operate the core applications.=A0 What ki=
lls me is that everyone who does a search for OpenSim inevitably hits the <=
a href=3D"http://opensimulator.org" target=3D"_blank">opensimulator.org</a>=
 site and that is where the massive roadblock presents itself.=A0 It's =
useless for most and irrelevant to the few who consider themselves OpenSim =
experts.<br>

<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Heck, even now on the configuration page it still displays=
 info for 0.6.6 including (months old) known bugs in setting up region xml =
files.=A0 If there was appointed a volunteer whose sole job was to keep inf=
ormation on <a href=3D"http://opensimulator.org" target=3D"_blank">opensimu=
lator.org</a> relevant that one task would resolve a mountain of negativity=
 right there.=A0 I sit here in front of my computers a good 10 to 12 hours =
a day.<br>

<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 I would sincerely love to contribute to the OpenSim projec=
t, especially in documentation support.=A0 But the thing holding me back is=
 communication.=A0 If I cannot get a straight answer on who to GIVE money t=
o in order to help, then I stand little chance of getting clear, straight a=
nswers from developers when asking about issues I need to consider and inco=
rporate in documentation.<br>

<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 If communication is a hurdle we can all overcome, with a g=
enuine and heart-felt effort to relay information, motives, and plans with =
one another, then I'd sincerely appreciate having the opportunity to pe=
rsonally contribute.=A0 I'm not a programmer today, but have a degree i=
n programming fro the 90's (so much has changed my degree is practicall=
y useless in that regard).=A0 But I do know how to explain things and relay=
 information in simple terms.=A0 But only if my own questions will be answe=
red with more than "look it up or figure it out yourself" as my a=
nswer.<br>

<br>=A0=A0=A0=A0 If any of you would appreciate my help, feel free to let m=
e know at any time and I'll do what I can.<br><br>- Len W. Brown<br>=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:lenwbrown at gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lenwbrow=
n at gmail.com</a><div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Colin B. Withers <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int" target=3D"_blank">Colin.Withers@=
eumetsat.int</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">

Hi guys,<br>
<br>
I have decided to leave the Opensim project. You will probably not even not=
ice if I leave, as not being a programmer my only inputs were the writing o=
f the step-by-step tutorials ( <a href=3D"http://chapter-and-metaverse.blog=
spot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/</a>=
 ), the drafts of the OpenSim User Manual on the Forge, and helping out in =
the IRC channels, for newcomers.<br>


<br>
You may find my reasons for leaving Opensim interesting though (and please =
do not construe any of my reasons as an attack on anyone).<br>
<br>
1. The Platform<br>
I raised this several times in the past in IRC, and made posts on my blog a=
bout the product lifecycle of the platform ( <a href=3D"http://rock-vacirca=
.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html</a=
> ). I believe that the platforms underpinning both Second Life and Opensim=
 are quite long in the tooth now, and I questioned how much product lifecyc=
le there was left, particularly given that Opensim is now nearing 3 years o=
f development, is still in Alpha, and if the current release of 0.6.7 is an=
y indicator, then still only around two thirds into the development cycle. =
With the (inevitable) coming of much superior platforms, such as Blue Mars =
and (as a virtual world); Unity, for browser-based Virtual Wolrds; and now =
UDK (for creating sandboxes, standalones, and open grids), then I fear that=
 Opensim has missed the boat as far as the remaining lifecycle of the platf=
orm is concerned. When you show people what is possible with these engines =
(for example this avatar editor for the forthcom<br>


=A0ing APB (using the Unreal Engine): <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/wat=
ch?v=3DicR3LtEMvZI" target=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DicR3=
LtEMvZI</a> or this city: <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhmLzN=
bPXMDg" target=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhmLzNbPXMDg</a> =
(using the CryEngine), then neither SL not Opensim stands comparison.<br>


<br>
2. Lack of Support for Currency in Opensim<br>
I felt the impact of this when I first made the switch from SL to Opensim. =
I had a thriving RP sim in SL (over 50 people, mainly female) and they all =
agreed to follow me over to my Opensim and the OSGrid. However, within a mo=
nth they had all left, citing the same reason, the lack of places to shop, =
to buy the quality stuff they wanted (skins, hair, clothes etc), as a quali=
ty appearance, and the fun of shopping is what all the females placed high =
on their requirements from a Virtual World. They drifted back to Second Lif=
e, and the guys followed them. I have always believed that the lack of supp=
ort for currency in the core was a mistake, but that is just my opinion.<br=
>


<br>
3. Marketing<br>
I have also raised this issue several times, and blogged about it. It is fa=
r from clear just who an eventually released Opensim is actually aimed at. =
I think that any company that is interested in a firewalled corporate solut=
ion to collaboration and prototyping will already be looking at the Enterpr=
ise solution that is currently available from Second Life; that any indie g=
roup that is thinking of running a themed grid will need an economy to stay=
 viable; and any individual who is looking for a private sandbox solution f=
or their SL work will need full compatibility (which is not the case with t=
he OS version of LSL diverging from the SL LSL). So, just who is the platfo=
rm aimed at? I was also very disappointed in the view of one of the core de=
vs who said that 'marketing is a null concept for us'.<br>


<br>
I am currently designing and creating cities for Blue Mars, and involved in=
 a team for proving the UDK as a platform for the design and creation of Vi=
rtual Worlds (as opposed to purely games), and with so much documentation a=
vailable for these mature engines (particularly for the UDK, Blue Mars lags=
 behind somewhat in that department, but have hired extra staff to put that=
 right), I am achieving the productivity I want, building the worlds that I=
 want, with stable crash-free platforms.<br>


<br>
However, I do wish the Opensim team the very best in their endeavours, and =
I sincerely hope their goals are eventually achieved.<br>
<br>
If anyone would like to take over the Opensim Tutorials pages at <a href=3D=
"http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://chapt=
er-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/</a> and <a href=3D"http://chapter-and-metave=
rse2.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspo=
t.com/</a> (they will need some updating following several changes) then I =
am more than willing to pass the posts over, and of course the Opensim User=
 Manual is there in the Forge for anyone to develop further.<br>


<br>
Best Regards and Good Luck<br>
<br>
Rock<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de" target=3D"_blank">Opensim-d=
ev at lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target=3D=
"_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.d=
e</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target=3D=
"_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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