[Opensim-dev] Global identifiers

Mon Aug 30 02:59:34 UTC 2010

See my previous email about what changed.

We seem to have quite different concepts of what a standards process is. 
In my book, a standards process is something that happens *after* 
implementations exist, and preferably several competing ones; in the 
people in VWRAP's book, it seems to mean "let's design something 
together from scratch and on paper".

Let's see how well these two concepts can co-exist. Maybe they can't!

Meadhbh Hamrick wrote:
> what's changed?
> 
> last year you (diva) seemed to have no interest in merging VWRAP with
> Hypergrid. if i remember correctly, hypergrid was going to go off and
> do an implementation while VWRAP went another way to try to
> incrementally build a standard and some code to implement it.
> 
> there's still, of course, room for you at the table. but if i remember
> correctly, you seemed to have problems with LLSD/LLIDL (now about to
> get renamed DSD) and you had a security model that didn't work with
> zha's use cases.
> 
> if you're interested in making the case for why VWRAP should adopt the
> hypergrid security model and drop DSD, you're welcome to participate
> in the VWRAP mailing list.
> 
> and i encourage you to actually do so before dropping a spec on the group.
> 
> -cheers
> -meadhbh
> 
> --
> meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve"
> @OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * OhMeadhbh at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 5:29 PM,  <diva at metaverseink.com> wrote:
>> Melanie is just right, as usual... well, as in 90% of the time :)
>> The cacheable_data was a brilliant idea, and if you had experience with
>> OpenSim in the wild, in how volatile these worlds are and how much these
>> particular remote lookups lag the sims, you would come to appreciate it,
>> instead of being put off by her dominatrix attitude.
>>
>> OpenSim core has been contributing center-front in VWRAP: John Hurliman is a
>> core developer of OpenSim.
>>
>> Mike Dickson wrote:
>>> That's great to hear.  And the first I've heard of it.  I'm on the VWRAP
>>> mailing list and yes, John has made some very substantive contributions
>>> to the discussion.  I haven't seen anything from OpenSim core during any
>>> part of the discussion to date.  I'm a pretty smart guy but not
>>> omnipotent.  I've simply interpreted the lack of participation  as lack
>>> of interest and past comments would tend to support that (I can dig them
>>> out if you like).  And there is no "general feeling" in VWRAP as to your
>>> proposal since its never been presented or discussed there.
>>>
>>> I'm not interested in a war, just open dialog and a sincere interest in
>>> interoperability.  I'll be glad to read the proposal when its made.  In
>>> the meantime I'd appreciate you not attribute negative motives to
>>> anything I've said. I've been simply trying to make technical arguments
>>> against an approach I think is wrong headed and not though out.  I've
>>> seen discussion here pretty much get cut off when a core member
>>> "dictates" the solution. Melanie seems to have made up her mind.  Fine.
>>> Go build it. Best of luck to you.  In the meantime I'll look forward to
>>> the Hypergrid proposal to VWRAP and reserve my comments for that time.
>>> BTW, I've found the VWRAP discussions to be pretty open and devoid of
>>> politics.  People will assert politics over almost anything of course
>>> but the dialog has been mostly open and good natured (and quiet lately).
>>> It will be good to have you at the table.  Given OpenSim gets a fair bit
>>> of attention it would have been nice if you'd been there all along.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 00:00 +0000, diva at metaverseink.com wrote:
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> That's an interesting statement to make, considering that John Hurliman
>>>> and I are working on writing up the *working* Hypergrid 1.5 as a proposal to
>>>> VWRAP, since we have both concluded that the concepts being talked there
>>>> lately, without any implementation behind them, are essentially
>>>> indistinguishable from the working HG 1.5 that lots of people are already
>>>> using.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that you are trying really hard to make this look like a war
>>>> between OpenSimulator and VWRAP. I don't think that's the general feeling in
>>>> VWRAP, I think it's just you. The proposal to VWRAP will happen. Hopefully,
>>>> most people there will be able to assess the technical issues, independent
>>>> of the political ones. (emphasis on *hopefully*)
>>>>
>>>> Diva / Crista
>>>>
>>>> Mike Dickson wrote:
>>>>> Fine, then do what you like.  The code's all available.  If I don't like
>>>>> it I can change it.  Of course that sort of shoots holes in
>>>>> interoperability. But then I didn't feel that hyper-grid belonged in
>>>>> core either for the same reason.
>>>>> I think you've way over trivialized the whole set of interactions
>>>>> between agent, asset and simulator services in situations where those
>>>>> services are defined by different principals.  As Meadbh said, this
>>>>> feels like optimizing to solve a specific problem before you've really
>>>>> looked at the larger issues. It might be instructive just to simply walk
>>>>> through some use cases and see where things fall apart.  Alot of that
>>>>> discussion has already taken place on the VWRAP list but OpenSim core
>>>>> seems to be dead set against involvement in that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see a way to contribute here beyond the opinion I've already
>>>>> voiced so I'll drop this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 22:56 +0000, Melanie wrote:
>>>>>> Sorry, i disagree. The information included is defined by the
>>>>>> REQUIRED data on the recipient, not on what data the sender wants to
>>>>>> provide. the recipient NEEDS a displayable field. It can't be optional.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Melanie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Dickson wrote:
>>>>>>> If the decision is to go ahead and do cache-able data then I'd agree,
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> it as attribute NVP's and make them optional. The originating agennt
>>>>>>> service is then free to define the semantics of the attributes it
>>>>>>> exposes.
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 21:42 +0000, Ai Austin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> From: diva at metaverseink.com
>>>>>>>>> protocol://authority/resource_type/resource_id[/cacheable_data]
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> consider ensuring that at least the name is provided in a form that
>>>>>>>> can be resolved fast and locally by including the avatar firstname+lastname
>>>>>>>> - in whatever form the providing grid wishes to address issues raised by
>>>>>>>> others - so long as the strings are "legal" in the creator/owner fields.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would it be worth making sure that the "cachable data" is in the form
>>>>>>>> of keyword=value pairs, and hence put in a "parameter" form after ? rather
>>>>>>>> than a final /?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> protocol://authority/resource_type/resource_id[?key_value_pair[,...]]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with a minimum suggested (or required?)
>>>>>>>>  avatarname=firstname+lastname if the resource_type = user
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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