[Opensim-dev] Leaving Project
James Stallings II
james.stallings at gmail.com
Mon Nov 23 16:55:13 UTC 2009
As Teravus hinted, this issue is being addressed comprehensively behind the
scenes.
Please don't ascribe to malice, arrogance, or indifference what can more
readily be found to be due to the accumulation of acutely contemporaneous
information over a period of years.
Fly-Man, the viewer clause you reference refers -only- to the linden viewer
code, not all viewer code everywhere; in this thread we are explicitly
excluding those viewers based on code from our friends at Linden Labs.
Cheers
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:46 AM, dz <dz at bitzend.net> wrote:
> Len,
>
> You have it right..
>
> As an expereinced project manager, I have watched in dismay as time and
> time again, people willing and WANTING to help move OpenSim forward have
> found themselves frustrated by a lack of BASIC documentation on the
> configuration of the "platform". The current attitude of " feel free to
> contribute by updating the wiki" completely IGNORES the fact that recent
> changes to the basic infrastructure makes most "part-time" participants
> working knowledge of the solutions obsolete. I can write 4 dozen wiki
> pages a day, but since I haven't been able to get OpenSim configured and
> working since just after the conversion to GIT, they would be useless and
> misleading to anyone who was seriously interested in testing. Being a
> volunteer programmer/developer on an open source project should not mean
> that coders get to "blow off" design and implementation documentation
> because "its a community effort". In fact.. One reason why finding good
> open source developers is so difficult is because it requires they have the
> skills and dedication to champion and SELL the technical solutions they are
> proposing.
>
> While core continues to pontificate on the importance of people building
> applications on the "platform" provided, and this "vision of community
> joining together", they also continue to insist on utilizing IRC as the
> primary means of group communication. This means that developers are
> answering the SAME questions over and over and over, and those of us who
> CAN"T spend our days connected to all 200 of our "chat spaces" don't have
> access to the information that was exchanged while we were off-line. It's
> telling that ALL of the major players in the space have understood and
> adopted web space, wikis, and basic forums for "customer support" when it
> come to the applications THEY have built on the platform.
>
> I have a TON of respect for the job that has been done, and I don't share
> your pessimistic view of the future. It's sad that it takes posts like this
> to revive the discussions about what it will take to make OpenSim viable and
> successful... but it isn't surprising. To me...the Alpha tag on the
> software is less an indication on its technical sopsitication and
> capabilities as it is an acknowledgement by the developers that they
> haven't been completely successful building the "whole community".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Kyle <create at reactiongrid.com> wrote:
>
>> Len let’s do this together! Your points are valid no question. But to
>> say you’re leaving is what threw us. Let me get caught up, Mondays suck
>> hehe, and then lets you and I talk about working on the Opensim site with
>> some others.
>>
>>
>>
>> No one here will say the site is perfect, you get no argument there. But
>> don’t leave, just say hey, I need help with a brilliant idea I have to make
>> Opensim more accessible. I am not a core developer myself, skills lacking.
>> But I am a web developer so I would like to offer you help in what is a
>> great mission-simplifying Opensim for all.
>>
>>
>>
>> So I ask you Len not to leave but to ping myself & Adam (he shares your
>> concerns as do others) & let’s see if we can’t incrementally improve the
>> site together. No one is upset about your critique, just the fact we are
>> losing you for no good reason that we cannot solve together.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stick around pal we’re listening to ya….
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Len Brown
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2009 10:21 AM
>>
>> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:53 AM, James Stallings II <
>> james.stallings at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Kyle tells it like it is :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No, Kyle tells it as he sees it and I respect that.
>>
>> Right now invite 100 people, no 10, no, just 1 person to go to
>> opensimulator.org and tell them to follow the directions provided on the
>> site and have them run an opensim server. They cannot do it. Pure and
>> simple. I know because I directed dozens, if not hundreds of people to
>> opensimulator.org off my own full island I had in Second Life (Liberia
>> Cove) dedicated to telling others about penSim. Not one single person was
>> able to get OpenSim running without considerable assistance from me and
>> others.
>>
>> This one single issue is the core of what bothers me above all
>> others. And yes, one can create an account and "edit the pages" oneself.
>> But one cannot edit something one does not already understand, right?
>>
>> If you have never built a coal mine then how would you be able to
>> write its instruction manual? To this day I have barely a working knowledge
>> of OpenSim and that has been greatly facilitated by Diva through the diva
>> distribution and assistance I've received from patrons of OSGrid (which I've
>> paid to receive help from as it seemed the only way to get anyone to talk
>> with me seriously on these issues is to fork over cash, and lots of it)
>>
>> Interestingly enough, the only version of OpenSim I have ever been
>> able to get running entirely from raw code through compilation was 0.6.5.1
>> and I miss those days almost every day. It was so simple anyone with basic
>> pc understanding could run a server from scratch and I witnessed it time and
>> again. I'd even wrote a manual on running OpenSim and MySQL entirely
>> portably and it worked flawlessly. No changes had to be made to a pc and I
>> was working on a version that worked on Windows, Mac and Linux when 0.6.6
>> came out and broke everything (I do not blame anyone for that, but am upset
>> I could not get anyone to help me fix the problems).
>>
>> I REALLY DO want to contribute and have a huge stake in this and
>> financial gain is NOT my goal and never has been. I am just one who
>> despises anything but the plain truth and simple facts. KISS - Keep It
>> Simple, Stupid. An important motto.
>>
>> My entire life revolves around sitting in front of a computer.
>> Actually, for me, about 80% of the time I'm laying in front of mine.
>> Believe me when I say that my life depends on computers in more ways than
>> you could imagine. OpenSim has been my "cheap-alternative" breath of fresh
>> air from Second Life and I take it personally when I read that OpenSim is
>> not intended as an alternative to Second Life when it most obviously is -
>> *to me*. And that is what matters.
>>
>> * Can we not seemingly "put the brakes on" everything and work on the
>> site, the very first place most people see when they search for "open
>> simulator"? It should be clean, clear, simple, friendly, and above all,
>> point directly to answers, solutions, simple resolutions to the main reason
>> why the multitude come to opensimulator.org - to download it, install it,
>> and use it.
>>
>> Why must that be so difficult?*
>>
>> - Len W. Brown
>> lenwbrown at gmail.com
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kyle <create at reactiongrid.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks James, great idea Jeroen. In fact on a last note on this subject I
>> feel the people having success with the platform (our company for example)
>> need to be concerned the Opensim devs do not leave US!
>>
>> For this reason we are trying to spread work around to other dev's who may
>> be focused on creating a platform and not profit focused. What if we lose
>> THEM? Shudders....
>>
>> Get involved, don't bail. We need those bailing to stick around, we're
>> too close to changing the world to give up now...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Jeroen van Veen
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:02 PM
>> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project
>>
>> Wishlist 2010:
>> * dump sl-client support
>> * embrace naali
>>
>> Jeroen
>>
>> On Monday 23 November 2009 14:53:53 James Stallings II wrote:
>> > Kyle tells it like it is :)
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Kyle <create at reactiongrid.com> wrote:
>> > > I would like to thank the Opensim developers for producing an
>> amazingly
>> > > stable Alpha in a couple of years sans millions or even thousands of
>> $$
>> > > of critically needed capital that most development teams have for such
>> a
>> > > large project. Some people feel the core developers and other
>> testers,
>> > > builders etc have not done enough to further the project in certain
>> areas
>> > > and yet this is exactly why the developers are so concerned with
>> building
>> > > a platform for solutions for you to build upon, not a solution in
>> itself.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Why did they choose this path of pluggable architecture and not
>> deliver a
>> > > solution in their vision? Because they have a vision bigger than
>> that,
>> > > they envision a community rallying around their hard work on the core
>> of
>> > > this system who add in their own needed elements on top of the base
>> being
>> > > created. To complain that you have not made a profit from the hard
>> work
>> > > of the volunteer developers shows a distinct lack of appreciation and
>> a
>> > > lack of personal motivation to get things done as an individual
>> working
>> > > with a larger group.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I myself experiment with Unity3D to handle some things OpenSim does
>> not
>> > > focus on. However the magic of Opensim, easy user created content, is
>> no
>> > > trivial matter to recreate elsewhere. Most do not understand the
>> > > difficult architecture of building a real-time, user created system.
>> To
>> > > make any other platform do this aspect is no trivial task which is why
>> > > Opensim is the only alternative out there to SL (same company that
>> > > promised an opensource server).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > So if you are leaving because an extensible platform that took years
>> for
>> > > volunteers to get has not catered to your specific needs then you
>> missed
>> > > the point of community. IBM has not left Opensim I talk to them
>> > > regularly and they are extremely motivated to see this project
>> succeed.
>> > > In fact those leaving are missing 2010, which I feel is going to be a
>> > > banner year for Opensim.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > While I understand the frustration of the lack of features vs SL and
>> > > others I also understand the magic of, for example, a teacher and
>> > > student building concepts together with easy to use, affordable tools.
>> > > This community has given freely and I for one bow in respect to these
>> > > gracious, giving and dedicated developers and testers and understand
>> the
>> > > incredibly complex job they face. Kudos Opensim we are with you for
>> the
>> > > long term….
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> > > opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Len Brown
>> > > *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2009 9:14 AM
>> > >
>> > > *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> > > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If the goal of OpenSim is to be incompatible with everyone elses
>> vision
>> > > then I too have little further interest in the project.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I'd hoped after IBM dropped OpenSim like a hot potato that the devs
>> would
>> > > realize the err of their ways and come round to a manageable and
>> > > collaborative progression from then on, but unfortunately that doesn't
>> > > seem to be the case.
>> > >
>> > > If the goal of OpenSim is to be "something different" but without any
>> aim
>> > > towards mass acceptance and compatibility than I too feel my time is
>> > > wasted. I have spent 8 to 12 hours a day for many weeks tediously
>> > > copying hundreds of items from my stores and shops in Second Life to
>> my
>> > > private home-hosted OpenSim regions foolishly believing that they will
>> > > remain compatible through OpenSim's future progression and that I
>> could
>> > > in turn share a good portion of my work with others since my desire
>> for
>> > > investment has been repeatedly turned down.
>> > >
>> > > I wish you all the best on your path.
>> > >
>> > > - Len W. Brown
>> > > lenwbrown at gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:31 AM, J Ross Nicoll <
>> > > jrn2005 at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I think the point about OpenSim not being Second Life needs to be
>> > > expanded to point out there are things attempting to be more of a
>> > > complete solution. realXtend ( http://www.realxtend.org/ ), Reaction
>> Grid
>> > > (
>> > > http://www.reactiongrid.com/ ) and SpotON3D ( https://spoton3d.com/ )
>> all
>> > > spring to mind here.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In terms of configuration, are you aware you can edit the Wiki
>> yourself?
>> > > You'll need to create an account and be logged in, then you should see
>> an
>> > > "Edit" link at the top of the page.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In terms of donating money... the problem is a lack of a clear
>> > > organisation to pay. However, I suspect a few people will do coding
>> for
>> > > hire if you have a specific feature request or bug fix wanted (Justin
>> > > Clark-Casey http://justincc.org/blog/hire-me/ being the most likely
>> > > candidate). Try e-mailing the mailing list asking for a quote for a
>> > > specific problem you're having to be fixed?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 23 Nov 2009, at 13:06, Len Brown wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Rock,
>> > >
>> > > I sympathize with you on many levels. I've also had my doubts
>> > > regarding the future of OpenSim, but I have also maintained some
>> degree
>> > > of faith that things will pull through in the end.
>> > >
>> > > For me the shock came when I was abruptly informed that "OpenSim
>> is
>> > > not Second Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor ever
>> will."
>> > > I still haven't the foggiest idea what this developer had smoked for
>> them
>> > > to so strongly assert that incredibly false statement.
>> > >
>> > > For me, the enjoyment of OpenSim has come from my intense
>> devotion
>> > > to building and skinning. In fact, for the last few months I've been
>> > > working on a full region that has many hundreds of skins, clothes,
>> hair,
>> > > furniture, etc, etc, that I'd like to package up as an OAR and give
>> out
>> > > freely, since repeatedly I've been told that instead of giving money
>> to
>> > > help further OpenSim I'd do more proactively by giving content. So I
>> > > plan to do just that and give my money to other open source
>> initiatives
>> > > that matter to me.
>> > >
>> > > I have a passion for writing, and have thought many times that
>> one
>> > > of the greatest powers OpenSim would gain is having simple,
>> > > straightforward, step-by-step instructions on how to download,
>> compile,
>> > > install, administer and overall just plain operate the core
>> applications.
>> > > What kills me is that everyone who does a search for OpenSim
>> inevitably
>> > > hits the
>> > > opensimulator.org site and that is where the massive roadblock
>> presents
>> > > itself. It's useless for most and irrelevant to the few who consider
>> > > themselves OpenSim experts.
>> > >
>> > > Heck, even now on the configuration page it still displays info
>> for
>> > > 0.6.6 including (months old) known bugs in setting up region xml
>> files.
>> > > If there was appointed a volunteer whose sole job was to keep
>> information
>> > > on opensimulator.org relevant that one task would resolve a mountain
>> of
>> > > negativity right there. I sit here in front of my computers a good 10
>> to
>> > > 12 hours a day.
>> > >
>> > > I would sincerely love to contribute to the OpenSim project,
>> > > especially in documentation support. But the thing holding me back is
>> > > communication. If I cannot get a straight answer on who to GIVE money
>> to
>> > > in order to help, then I stand little chance of getting clear,
>> straight
>> > > answers from developers when asking about issues I need to consider
>> and
>> > > incorporate in documentation.
>> > >
>> > > If communication is a hurdle we can all overcome, with a genuine
>> and
>> > > heart-felt effort to relay information, motives, and plans with one
>> > > another, then I'd sincerely appreciate having the opportunity to
>> > > personally contribute. I'm not a programmer today, but have a degree
>> in
>> > > programming fro the 90's (so much has changed my degree is practically
>> > > useless in that regard). But I do know how to explain things and
>> relay
>> > > information in simple terms. But only if my own questions will be
>> > > answered with more than "look it up or figure it out yourself" as my
>> > > answer.
>> > >
>> > > If any of you would appreciate my help, feel free to let me know
>> at
>> > > any time and I'll do what I can.
>> > >
>> > > - Len W. Brown
>> > > lenwbrown at gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Colin B. Withers <
>> > > Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hi guys,
>> > >
>> > > I have decided to leave the Opensim project. You will probably not
>> even
>> > > notice if I leave, as not being a programmer my only inputs were the
>> > > writing of the step-by-step tutorials (
>> > > http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/), the drafts of the
>> OpenSim
>> > > User Manual on the Forge, and helping out in the IRC channels, for
>> > > newcomers.
>> > >
>> > > You may find my reasons for leaving Opensim interesting though (and
>> > > please do not construe any of my reasons as an attack on anyone).
>> > >
>> > > 1. The Platform
>> > > I raised this several times in the past in IRC, and made posts on my
>> blog
>> > > about the product lifecycle of the platform (
>> > >
>> http://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html
>> > >). I believe that the platforms underpinning both Second Life and
>> Opensim
>> > > are quite long in the tooth now, and I questioned how much product
>> > > lifecycle there was left, particularly given that Opensim is now
>> nearing
>> > > 3 years of development, is still in Alpha, and if the current release
>> of
>> > > 0.6.7 is any indicator, then still only around two thirds into the
>> > > development cycle. With the (inevitable) coming of much superior
>> > > platforms, such as Blue Mars and (as a virtual world); Unity, for
>> > > browser-based Virtual Wolrds; and now UDK (for creating sandboxes,
>> > > standalones, and open grids), then I fear that Opensim has missed the
>> > > boat as far as the remaining lifecycle of the platform is concerned.
>> When
>> > > you show people what is possible with these engines (for example this
>> > > avatar editor for the forthcom
>> > > ing APB (using the Unreal Engine):
>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icR3LtEMvZI or this city:
>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLzNbPXMDg (using the CryEngine),
>> then
>> > > neither SL not Opensim stands comparison.
>> > >
>> > > 2. Lack of Support for Currency in Opensim
>> > > I felt the impact of this when I first made the switch from SL to
>> > > Opensim. I had a thriving RP sim in SL (over 50 people, mainly female)
>> > > and they all agreed to follow me over to my Opensim and the OSGrid.
>> > > However, within a month they had all left, citing the same reason, the
>> > > lack of places to shop, to buy the quality stuff they wanted (skins,
>> > > hair, clothes etc), as a quality appearance, and the fun of shopping
>> is
>> > > what all the females placed high on their requirements from a Virtual
>> > > World. They drifted back to Second Life, and the guys followed them. I
>> > > have always believed that the lack of support for currency in the core
>> > > was a mistake, but that is just my opinion.
>> > >
>> > > 3. Marketing
>> > > I have also raised this issue several times, and blogged about it. It
>> is
>> > > far from clear just who an eventually released Opensim is actually
>> aimed
>> > > at. I think that any company that is interested in a firewalled
>> corporate
>> > > solution to collaboration and prototyping will already be looking at
>> the
>> > > Enterprise solution that is currently available from Second Life; that
>> > > any indie group that is thinking of running a themed grid will need an
>> > > economy to stay viable; and any individual who is looking for a
>> private
>> > > sandbox solution for their SL work will need full compatibility (which
>> is
>> > > not the case with the OS version of LSL diverging from the SL LSL).
>> So,
>> > > just who is the platform aimed at? I was also very disappointed in the
>> > > view of one of the core devs who said that 'marketing is a null
>> concept
>> > > for us'.
>> > >
>> > > I am currently designing and creating cities for Blue Mars, and
>> involved
>> > > in a team for proving the UDK as a platform for the design and
>> creation
>> > > of Virtual Worlds (as opposed to purely games), and with so much
>> > > documentation available for these mature engines (particularly for the
>> > > UDK, Blue Mars lags behind somewhat in that department, but have hired
>> > > extra staff to put that right), I am achieving the productivity I
>> want,
>> > > building the worlds that I want, with stable crash-free platforms.
>> > >
>> > > However, I do wish the Opensim team the very best in their endeavours,
>> > > and I sincerely hope their goals are eventually achieved.
>> > >
>> > > If anyone would like to take over the Opensim Tutorials pages at
>> > > http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/ and
>> > > http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspot.com/ (they will need some
>> updating
>> > > following several changes) then I am more than willing to pass the
>> posts
>> > > over, and of course the Opensim User Manual is there in the Forge for
>> > > anyone to develop further.
>> > >
>> > > Best Regards and Good Luck
>> > >
>> > > Rock
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Opensim-dev mailing list
>> > > Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Opensim-dev mailing list
>> > > Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ---
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Please CC all MMS related e-mails to fixit-mms at st-andrews.ac.uk.
>> > >
>> > > The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland: No
>> > > SC013532.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Opensim-dev mailing list
>> > > Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
>> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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