[Opensim-dev] Currency

Mark Malewski mark.malewski at gmail.com
Tue Jul 21 10:51:22 UTC 2009 

I agree, if core dev doesn't want it a part of core... that's their choice,
but as long as we can create a separate "OpenCurrency" module and add
whatever hooks are necessary to core, that should suffice.
This way we can always improve upon the "OpenCurrency" module (add PayPal
API gateway, etc.).  But I believe first and foremost, to just start by
using the "OpenCurrency" module as a points system (OS$) as just a virtual
points system (during Alpha and early Beta testing).

Then later we can always add PayPal support (to purchase virtual points)
similar to what Zynga does in their online games.  You can buy Godfather
points, and most online games have some form of virtual points system.

> Agree a points system would be very good.  Most games have points of
> some kind, so I dont think that infinges anything.

I agree as well.  I think a points system is a great idea, and I think this
is the main point that Jason, Colin, Rock and Aldon were trying to make.

A virtual points system is key to online gaming, and the virtual world
experience.  Leaving this key element out of the equation makes no sense at
all.

The ability to add moving vehicles, "attack" and "damage" points, as well as
"health" points, and a virtual currency points system of some sort is what
makes online gaming fun.

If you could start out with 50 virtual points, and buy a baseball bat for 20
pts, and then hit garbage cans (causing virtual damage) it would make the
virtual experience more realistic and interesting/fun.

Personally I love what the RealXtend crew is doing, and their ideology of
seeing RealXtend evolve into a virtual gaming platform is an incredible idea
(and incredible vision).

An open source virtual gaming platform that developers can easily create
vehicles for, with a good physics engine, and the ability to drive/fly/sail
vehicles between regions seamlessly, and the ability to use weapons
(baseball bats, guns, cars, etc.) would ultimately combine the virtual
social networking platform with the interactive gaming world, and that is
something worth getting excited about.

Content developers (such as Zynga or Aldmino) or some of the others can
design content for virtual gaming worlds, and I believe OpenSim could be
very successful if they headed in this direction.  If not, then it'll just
be another 3D chatroom, and it will probably go the way of the dust (come
and go) like the countless others before it.  What made SL different was the
points aspect, and the ability to create vehicles, and it gave people hope
of what might be to come.  I think designing a virtual platform (from the
ground up) like OpenSim is doing, to be a great opportunity for online
virtual gaming platforms.  It really makes no sense at all to leave out a
points or karma system.

I'd really love to see a "health", "stamina", "attack", "defense", "energy"
and points/currency system added.  This way objects could have "attack" and
"defense" values.  Like a baseball bat could have an attack value of 2, and
a defense value of 2.  A Humvee could have an attack value of 22 and a
defense of 25.  A canon could have an attack value of 25 and a defense of 3.
 A machine gun might have an attack value of 16 and a defense of 10.  A
pistol may have an attack value of 5 and a defense of 7.

Then users could strike vehicles (and cause damage) or strike objects (such
a Coke machine, or garbage can).  Thus adding another layer (and dimension)
of gameplay to the OpenSim environment (making OpenSim an "Open Gaming
Platform") for content developers.

I really believe in what the RealXtend crew is doing, in trying to create an
OpenSource Gaming Platform (built upon the OS core).

I just think a points/karma system is an integral part of an interactive
virtual environment.


On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Melvin Carvalho
<melvincarvalho at gmail.com>wrote:

> Agree a points system would be very good.  Most games have points of
> some kind, so I dont think that infinges anything.
>
> Whether to make it part of the core or not is completely at the
> discretion of the development team.
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Mark Malewski<mark.malewski at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon,
> > I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual currency
> > system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual real-world
> > currency).
> > Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have "virtual currencies" and
> > things such as "virtual money" and "Godfather points" in their Mafia Wars
> > games, and all of their other various games.
> > Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of "virtual currency" or
> > points system.  There is no argument concerning "virtual currency" as
> being
> > unsecure, or inappropriate or any form of liability.
> > I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to secure
> e-commerce
> > (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement secure commerce.
> > First off, the "points" in the game, are nothing more than that.  They
> are
> > just points.  I've lost items (through "gifting") before on other online
> > games, and it's really no big deal.  Tech support normally "makes things
> > right".  But this is not a liability issue as much as this seems to be a
> > "money making" issue.
> > There seem to be some developers (in the core dev team) that may or may
> not
> > want to offer their OWN e-commerce system (as a service/money making
> > opportunity).  So I can understand their rage in the concept of someone
> > creating an "OpenCurrency" project, because they may feel that it's a
> loss
> > of opportunity for them to sell a product (if someone gives it away for
> > free, as in air). Ultimately I feel that a points/virtual currency system
> is
> > vital to OpenSim's success.
> > I believe e-commerce is an important part of Virtual World development,
> just
> > as e-commerce is an important part of the web. Trying to have a virtual
> > world without any form of e-commerce is similar to having an internet
> > without any form of e-commerce.
> > I've seen payment gateways for virtual worlds dating all the way back to
> > 1996 (Active Worlds) and designing the core (securely) from the ground
> up,
> > so that it could handle a virtual "points" system would seem to make
> sense.
> >  You don't need to build a mamoth of secure servers, as PayPal already
> does
> > much of that for you.  It would seem that just a simple module that would
> > work hand in hand with PayPal's API would suffice.
> > Linden dollars are nothing more than a points system.  Whether you choose
> to
> > call it Karma points, or currency, or virtual dollars, whatever the
> case...
> > it's still points.  It's NOT real money, it's NOT real cash, it's just
> > points.
> > It would seem to make sense to create a separate OpenCurrency project as
> > Aldon suggested, as this seems to be an EXTREMELY important piece of the
> > OpenSim project.
> > Designing a virtual world system (like OpenSim) without any form of
> points
> > systems (Karma, Currency, or whatever you wish to call it) would be
> similar
> > to designing a computer without a monitor, keyboard or mouse.
> > I understand the concept of having a 3D Virtual Chatroom (for educational
> > purposes and online learning) but 3D portals (such as Linden's) where
> people
> > come together, talk, chat, play online games, and engage in trading, etc.
> > some form of points or commerce system is critical.
> > If Core doesn't want to take part in the project (because they have their
> > own vested interests in their own personal ventures) then it may be in
> the
> > best interests of the Open Source Community to start a separate Open
> Source
> > "OpenCurrency" project, that is a separate entity from Core, and it seems
> > completely stupid to have to branch off and create a separate fork, but
> if
> > this is what the Core Devs want is a separate fork, then so be it.
> > RealXtend has had to fork, and it seems to hurt the OpenSource project as
> a
> > whole, because the forks eventually run independently of one another.
> > It would seem to make more sense to just make the "OpenCurrency" project
> a
> > part of OpenSim core (as a module) that can easily be enabled/disabled by
> > just installing the module, and enabling/disabling a flag in the
> OpenSim.ini
> > configuration file.  Something that will just allow the transfer of
> points
> > between users in the virtual world.
> > I believe something as simple as OS$ (open sim points, or open sim
> virtual
> > dollars) would be sufficient, similar to Linden's implementation.
> > "I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it
> for
> > more than a year."  Was not aware of that, but that's very good to know.
> > It would be good to create a separate "OpenCurrency" project, and if it's
> > something that the core OpenSim developers don't wish to take part in,
> then
> > maybe it can be something that can be developed and added to the
> RealXtend
> > module and the RealXtend crew has done a fine job of adding additional
> > features, but either way we should be able to create a separate
> > "OpenCurrency" project independent of the OpenSim project, and possibly
> even
> > work hand in hand with the RealXtend developers, as a virtual currency
> > and/or virtual point system really would be crucial in online gaming, and
> > virtual social networks (the ability to exchange & transfer points, and
> > objects/items between users).
> > It would seem that Core Dev are being very narrow (and closed) minded
> > concerning the idea of a points/karma system, but I would love to see an
> > OpenCurrency project started by a separate group, and something that can
> > easily be added (as a free module) to the OpenSim core.
> >>I will, if you can prove you know enough about computer security
> >> and writing secure code.
> > I'm not a developer, I'm a computer/network security engineer but I could
> at
> > least help with alpha/beta testing, and work on attacks, vulnerability
> > testing and security audits if need be (so that we can work on improving
> the
> > product).
> > I really do think that an "OpenCurrency" project would be great for the
> > OpenSim Community (and probably the number one, and most requested
> feature
> > for OpenSim).
> > I'd be more than happy to join in on helping with the "OpenCurrency"
> project
> > in any way that I can (such as technical writing, WIKI documentation,
> > tutorials, and vulnerability/alpha/beta testing).
> > The key point is to view OpenSim as a "Virtual Gaming Platform" and
> without
> > some form of points or Karma system, it really loses out as a real
> > interactive community network platform, and turns into a "3D Chatroom"
> which
> > has been done so many times before.  What made SL so different, was the
> > ability to trade goods, items, and even points between users.  This is a
> > very important aspect of Virtual Worlds, and it seems a key piece that
> core
> > devs want to leave out.
> > I guess the only solution is to create and form a separate OpenCurrency
> > project that is independent of the OpenSim project (similar to RealXtend)
> > and just work independently of the Core Devs on an "OpenCurrency"
> project.
> > As I stated previously, I'd be more than willing to help in this venture.
> >  It seems that Melanie already has some work/implementation that she has
> > already started, maybe we can start an OpenSource "OpenCurrency" project
> and
> > build upon some of what Mel has already done, or work on building
> something
> > similar to what SL has done (using PayPal API's as a gateway, and using
> > Paypal to handle all the secure financial transactions).  This way the
> > OpenCurrency server simply holds the points/karma as just an item/object
> in
> > the asset server?  It would seem to make sense to just have a currency
> value
> > assigned to users.  If objects can be gifted between users (and not
> stolen)
> > then I can't imagine the problem with being unable to gift points between
> > users.  Some people like to act like the sky is falling, and attempt to
> > equate "points=cash" which they do not.  Many online games use a points
> > system, including Zynga, and SL.  A small handful of devs want to act
> like
> > the sky is falling anytime you mention anything about a points system,
> but
> > the code is still in the Alpha stages, and this would be the best time to
> > work on designing a module (from the ground up) so that OpenSim could be
> > made as a secure platform.  It's foolish to develop something without
> having
> > the vision to make it secure, and something that is expandable, and
> > something that can easily accept a virtual points/karma system.
> > Games such as "Mafia Wars" (that use virtual points as part of the gaming
> > experience) have well over 16.5+ Million active users, with over 3.4 to 4
> > million active players each day.  It would only make sense to include a
> > points system as part of OpenSim, and doesn't make any sense at all to
> > ignore such a key element in an online gaming or online virtual platform.
> >  Some region/world operators may choose not to enable it, but it still
> > should be a part of core that could easily be enabled/disabled.
> > If Core Devs don't want it to be a part of core, then we may just have to
> > start a separate OpenSource "OpenCurrency" project.  It may need to be a
> > separate module, similar to what RealXtend is doing, but I'm more than
> > willing to help with the effort in any way that I can.  (Website
> > development, Wiki documentation, technical writing, tutorials, alpha/beta
> > testing, vulnerability & penetration testing, etc.)
> >                   Mark
> > MCSA/MCSE:Security/CCNA/CCDA/CCDP/CHFI/ECSA/LPT/Security+
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Len Brown <lenwbrown at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I still experience an occasional hiccup with the Second Life money
> system
> >> so i remain slightly wary of it.  Since money transactions remain a very
> >> buggy and unreliable thing when it comes to virtual worlds, I've learned
> >> many new ways to make financial gains without any in-world monetary
> >> implementations at all.
> >>
> >> At present I am gradually leasing out 25 regions from my own servers.  I
> >> simply request payment be made via PayPal within the first 7 days of
> each
> >> month and thus far I've not experienced any issues at all.  Everyone
> seems
> >> very happy and I simplify things by only leasing out full regions rather
> >> than trying to divide them up and lease out portions of regions.
> >>
> >> While an in-world money system would at times be nice, and eventually
> will
> >> come into being through optional plugins, I am quite happy managing my
> >> virtual world properties through PayPal payments.
> >>
> >> - Len W. Brown
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, J Ross Nicoll
> >> <jrn2005 at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think this illustrates extremely well why most of the devs don't want
> >>> to touch a money system. Making a proper monetary system means ensuring
> >>> that transactions happen, or do not, you can't get 7 copies of the same
> >>> transaction that then have to be unpicked by hand. I wouldn't be averse
> >>> to writing a money module if I had time (so, not this year), but I'd
> >>> want to do it properly so you can't get into this sort of mess...
> >>>
> >>> Len Brown wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > This reminds me of a situation I encountered in Second Life last
> >>> > Autumn.  I logged in on a Saturday morning and decided to sell a
> piece
> >>> > of land I no longer needed.  I set the asking price at 10,000
> Lindens.
> >>> >
> >>> > Right about that time Linden Lad encountered a problem and began a
> >>> > rolling restart of their servers.  Somehow the money system got
> "stuck"
> >>> > and when someone bought my land it did not register with the Linden
> Lab
> >>> > servers.
> >>> >
> >>> > The result was that, over the course of the next 20 minutes 7 people
> >>> > "bought" my land.  When the dust settled I had one actual owner of my
> >>> > land and 7 actual purchases.  As you might imagine, a lot of people
> >>> > were
> >>> > very angry that I got their Lindens and they got nothing in return.
> >>> >
> >>> > I communicated to them all and tried to explain the situation but
> most
> >>> > called me a liar since "this never happened before.  I then contacted
> >>> > Linden Lab tech support (after waiting nearly an hour on hold) and
> was
> >>> > told NOT to refund the Lindens as they would resolve the "glitch."
> >>> >
> >>> > After 24 hours and some very hostile people demanding their money
> back
> >>> > I
> >>> > decided to go ahead and send each of them the 10,000 Lindens they
> gave
> >>> > me.  Almost a week later I logged in to find my account nearly 70,000
> >>> > Lindens overdrawn!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No
> >>> SC013532
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
> >>
> >>
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